I'm a killing machine.

[hapki68]

So I'm standing at the bus stop yesterday looking dashing in my suit and tennis shoes (it's a long walk) when a woman offers me 300 bucks to pose naked for a magazine...







Ok.. I made that second part up.

But I was, in fact, standing at the bus stop and looking dashing when a large, quasi-homeless-type man approached me.

"Ugh," I thought, knowing where this was going. Anticipating that I wasn't going to give him money, he started getting testy and saying over and over that he was having woman problems -- with Haile Barry.

"You're really talking to the wrong guy," I thought, trying to get away. As he moved closer and closer to me, I started imagining what I would do if he touched me in a confrontational way.

For a blue-belt hapkidoan, the best thing you can ask for is someone to grab your wrist or clothing. It's like a slow pitch to Babe Ruth -- that ball is outta here. But what if he punched? We're learning how to deal with that now... and, for better or worse, I feel the most comfortable with a block by one hand followed up with a finger strike into the throat with the other. It's logical and flows well for me -- unlike some of the other moves.

The problem is that a throat strike is the last move I would ever want to do on anyone. I'm not the type that gets off on seeing things die.

So I'm going to try to practice other, less deadly moves, over and over... but I still worry about coming back to that one if I'm ever panicked.

Any thoughts or similar experiences?

BTW, I ended the situation by holding out my hand to shake his (which he accepted) and said I really enjoyed talking to him. It let him save face and allowed me to control what he did with his body.

Hapki

 

[Kreth]

One application that I've used several times for myself and when working as a bouncer is to rest my hands lightly on the other person's biceps. It's an easy way to control someone by making subtle shifts and keeping them off-balance, and works especially well with an intoxicated person. Just keep talking to them in a calm tone of voice, and it also has the benefit of appearing non-confrontational to bystanders, should things get ugly.
I'd be very careful about a handshake with someone you're not sure of, because I've seen it used over and over again to set up a sucker punch.

 

[rutherford]

I've had training/sparring partners ask to stop, "because I feel like I'm going to hurt (or kill) you!"

I think it's bull.

I've never had trouble, no matter the intensity level, of attacking with a proper response. All engagements have rules, whether they be rules of sport or rules of morality, or use of force continuum, or rules of survival, etc.

A change in rules necessitates an overall change in strategy. However, if you keep your focus on the intention to prevail (survive?) and have a good understanding of strategy, this adaptability comes naturally.

 

[tradrockrat]

couple things :
1. Glad it all worked out
2. Good advice about homeless people - they are not mentally stable - a handshake may be the trigger for a violent attack - keep your distance from people with mental issues at all times !!!

I don't say this out of some TV-land pop psychology - I've worked with this population before, my first classroom teaching job was with severe ED kids, but on the hospital campus was an adult ward and the rules were simple - don't touch the inmates unless he's a serious threat to himself or others.

 

[matt.m]

I have partied at the mouth of the Patomic and surrounding area. My friends and I would always get harassed by someone. One thing we would always do was say no thank you loud enough for all to hear. We would just keep going. Only once did a fight break out, we beat these few guys up, all the time we were saying things like "We don't want to fight" and
"Quit attacking me".

Pat, I am glad you had an uneventful and good handling of the scenerio of what was going on.

-Matt

 

[Dark]

Don't know about the killing machine thing ans a shot to the thraot won't kill you, unless your body has no room to recoil from the impact. The best solution is to talk calmly to them and treat them with some measure of respect. I know several homelss guys and some of them are pretty smart they just don't want to play the games of siciety...

 

[Phadrus00]

For a blue-belt hapkidoan, the best thing you can ask for is someone to grab your wrist or clothing. It's like a slow pitch to Babe Ruth -- that ball is outta here. But what if he punched? We're learning how to deal with that now... and, for better or worse, I feel the most comfortable with a block by one hand followed up with a finger strike into the throat with the other. It's logical and flows well for me -- unlike some of the other moves.

The problem is that a throat strike is the last move I would ever want to do on anyone. I'm not the type that gets off on seeing things die.

So I'm going to try to practice other, less deadly moves, over and over... but I still worry about coming back to that one if I'm ever panicked.

Any thoughts or similar experiences?

BTW, I ended the situation by holding out my hand to shake his (which he accepted) and said I really enjoyed talking to him. It let him save face and allowed me to control what he did with his body.

Hapki

Hapki,

First of all Glad it all worked out and came to nothing. I concur with tradrockrat's suggestion that committing your hand to a handshake could set you up for a hidden stike or a violent outburst. Having travelled on the public transit system for a few years here in Boston I have dealt with more than a few homeless people of varying degrees of sanity. My approach has been to try and keep a safe distance and if they approach me give them the look of "Dude you do NOT want to play with me today!". Of course the effect of The Look is enhanced by the fact that I am 6'4" and about 300 lbs so your mileage may vary... *grin* But having a "Game Face" is good.

In regards to your latter points about techniques. You should have at your disposal a spectrum of techniques that allow you to respond to a threat at an appropriate level. Simple wristlocks and armlocks are often excellent responses to an unarmed, agressive person like a homeless person or a drunk reveller. As I recall from my Hapkido days the system has a plethora of great joint locks from situations like a lapel grab, a shoulder grab or a wild punch. If it is more intense than just a sloppily drunk frat boy then a hip throw or a sweep is very effective. In many cases surprising an individual with a technique can effectively shut down their desire to engage with you. The Best response of course is to walk away and let the authorities handle it but sometimes that is just not an option.

Having said all that do remember the situations' context ultimately dictates what is the appropriate (and safest) response. Be aware of certain "red flags" like large groups of people who seem to be harassing individuals, exceedingly erratic behavior from someone like yelling or wild flailing at no one in particular, someone following you, or someone trying to encourage you to go someplace more discreet. These are common preludes to bad things and identifying them early may give you the opportunity to avoid them entirely.

Good Luck with your training and work on your "Commutter Game Face".. *grin*

Rob

 

[hapki68]

Trust me, Dark, my hands are ruthless purveyors of quick death. ("Hey, are you lookin' at me?!?")

Just for the record, this guy wasn't homeless... he was more of an unkempt scam artist. (Although, if he worked out, lost weight and regained some sanity, he wouldn't have been half bad looking.)

In any case, everyone's advice about not shaking hands is good.

On a related note, I had a very cute, petite friend in college that faced a scary situation when she was walking through a parking garage alone at night and a group of guys coming towards her were staring and started making comments. Thinking quickly, she just started acting like a lunatic. She jumped up and down, threw her hands in the air and screamed crazy stuff at them. They were probably ultimately harmless... but it was the only thing she could think of to do at the time and they left her alone. Of course, she had to switch schools cause she couldn't get a date after that.

P

 

[FuriousGeorge]

I know a bunch of homeless people, and some people who have been homeless and I can say that for the most part homeless aren't that different from you or me...most of them have had some hard times but are genuinely good people that are just trying to make it from day to day like the rest of us, a lot of times they don't have social skills or the ability to operate like you or me. I find some of the statements i've read in this thread offensive, paticularly generalizations about their collective mental stability, and the idea that its likely that a homeless guy would just up and attack a stranger with no provocation at a bus stop...these statements are predjudiced, based on fear of the unknown as opposed to any real threat. Here's a tip, sometimes all a homeless person is after is a little compassion and a spare quarter, so next time you're talking to one, treat him like a normal person instead of plotting a counterattack.

 

[Dark]

Trust me, Dark, my hands are ruthless purveyors of quick death. ("Hey, are you lookin' at me?!?")

Takes allot more then looks and being in shape, plus with several Black belts and military (combat arms) under my belt, I won't even make that killing machine comment Few people can deal with the mental issues of killing someone, especially with their hands... But thats just me.

 

[Bigshadow]

Takes allot more then looks and being in shape, plus with several Black belts and military (combat arms) under my belt, I won't even make that killing machine comment Few people can deal with the mental issues of killing someone, especially with their hands... But thats just me.

Dark, I believe he said that jokingly. At least that is the way I read it.

 

[Dark]

I was hoping but you never know... lol

 

[MA-Caver]

The more you learn the more "dangerous" you become. The higher your ranking the higher the probablity that death by your hand is.

Sounds like rubbish but it's true. We learn these techniques in our (respective) arts to protect what's ours and those we love. We learn for a 100 different other reasons as well. But on top of all these things that we learn, the most important one is control. Control of our fear, reactions and responses and our movements.

It's the reflection of the person that we truly are that defines what we will and won't do in a SD situation (particularly like that one). Waiting, waiting, patiently waiting but remaining attentiative to your (potential) antagonist's every move and coiling up like a rattler waiting to strike at the least provocation, only to relax and do nothing at all. ... I've seen rattlers do this in the wild and get into that raised head and ready to strike-coiled position and then like the air gets let out of it's tail somewhere... it deflates and slowly moves on, because the danger has passed. We should be like that I think.

You did the right thing IMO either way... didn't over-react but thought out everything that you can possibly do. Even if the guy touched you, you still probably weren't threatened. Homeless people are sometimes so lonely and crave for the things they've lost that we've taken for granted. Even a simple touch and/or a kind word is sometimes all they need to help get through the rest of the day/night.

 

[Kensai]

An interesting thread, and some great replies. I would recommend a book by Geoff Thompson, it's called "3 Second Fighter". It's only a short book, it highlights in very succint terms certain danger signals/and how to relate your art to it. It would agree with the point about not extending the hand, as some "streetfighters/muggers" etc can use this against you. The author was a doorman in Coventry in the UK for 10 years, and although looks like he was christened with a spade, is in fact an incredibly humble, articulate bloke. Has quite a few little pointers and tips.

I only suggested that as when you mentioned you'd put your hand out to shake his, while I'm sure he was a good bloke, you can never fully know another persons intentions, regardless of which area of society they're from. In short, I think you played it right. Be courteous, but be on your guard. I always am. I walk round like it. I NEVER walk round with my head in the clouds. Where I live is like the Black Hole of Calcutta, so it pays to keep your eyes open.

Btw, the book I mentioned contains no suggestions about techniques, it doesn't have dozens of photos, it's only very short, it merely emphasizes awareness of your environment, and many MA classes don't put much/any emphasis on that I'm sad to say.

 

[Martial Tucker]

I know a bunch of homeless people, and some people who have been homeless and I can say that for the most part homeless aren't that different from you or me...most of them have had some hard times but are genuinely good people that are just trying to make it from day to day like the rest of us, a lot of times they don't have social skills or the ability to operate like you or me. I find some of the statements i've read in this thread offensive, paticularly generalizations about their collective mental stability, and the idea that its likely that a homeless guy would just up and attack a stranger with no provocation at a bus stop...these statements are predjudiced, based on fear of the unknown as opposed to any real threat. Here's a tip, sometimes all a homeless person is after is a little compassion and a spare quarter, so next time you're talking to one, treat him like a normal person instead of plotting a counterattack.

I totally agree with this.

Also, get out of the habit of pre-judging people by their appearance.
I live in Chicago and have had more than my share of street "encounters". You're more likely to be attacked by someone who "looks" normal.

 

[Kreth]

Takes allot more then looks and being in shape, plus with several Black belts and military (combat arms) under my belt, I won't even make that killing machine comment

Well, since you brought it up, black belts in what? You kind of ducked this question in the aliveness thread...

 

[Gemini]

I know a bunch of homeless people, and some people who have been homeless and I can say that for the most part homeless aren't that different from you or me...most of them have had some hard times but are genuinely good people that are just trying to make it from day to day like the rest of us, a lot of times they don't have social skills or the ability to operate like you or me. I find some of the statements i've read in this thread offensive, paticularly generalizations about their collective mental stability, and the idea that its likely that a homeless guy would just up and attack a stranger with no provocation at a bus stop...these statements are predjudiced, based on fear of the unknown as opposed to any real threat. Here's a tip, sometimes all a homeless person is after is a little compassion and a spare quarter, so next time you're talking to one, treat him like a normal person instead of plotting a counterattack.

I think he clarified that the gent in question wasn't homeless, but "An unkept scam artist", which I read as setting up the story, not a shot at homeless people.

To your point though, adddressing the "homeless" issue here, having been raised in Chicago and spent the last 20 years in NYC, I can also say that I've had my share of encounters. However, I will not say I know any homeless people. What I've found in my experiences with these encounters is that yes, there are those that need little more than a quarter and some compassion, but there are also those that have appeared to be somewhat "not right" (case in point, a few years back, a female tourist walking down the street in Manhattan and a homeless individual decides to slam a brick into her head. No reason, just 'cause.) Point being, homeless or wearing a $600 suit, you just don't know. Yes, there are just like any other people. Anytime a stranger approaches me, I'm watching and making a mental note of my surroundings. I don't think of it as paranoia or prejudgmental, I call it common sense. I haven't predetermined anything, I've just left myself open for anything. Noting surroundings and reading body language is part of my training. More likely than not, the part that will, or maybe even has, saved my life.

 

[funnytiger]

I know a bunch of homeless people, and some people who have been homeless and I can say that for the most part homeless aren't that different from you or me...most of them have had some hard times but are genuinely good people that are just trying to make it from day to day like the rest of us, a lot of times they don't have social skills or the ability to operate like you or me. I find some of the statements i've read in this thread offensive, paticularly generalizations about their collective mental stability, and the idea that its likely that a homeless guy would just up and attack a stranger with no provocation at a bus stop...these statements are predjudiced, based on fear of the unknown as opposed to any real threat. Here's a tip, sometimes all a homeless person is after is a little compassion and a spare quarter, so next time you're talking to one, treat him like a normal person instead of plotting a counterattack.

Just an interesting fact... the National Coalition for the Homeless reports that "approximately 20-25% of the homeless population suffer from sort of severe and persistent mental illness." Only 22% of the American population suffers from mental illness. That's not even including the percentage of them that abuse either alcohol or drugs.

I say that only to say that my experience with the homeless is quite the opposite from FuriousGeorge's. Living in a major metropolitan are such as DC you are exposed to a lot of homeless people. Not to say that other metro areas don't have the same issues, Boston having the largest population of the homeless as a matter of fact. I say that to only point out that there isn't a day that goes by that I don't see or interact with someone who is homeless. I've never been attacked, but I have felt a very real danger from more than a few. Maybe DC has a larger population of mentally ill homeless, but I doubt that. Of course... there are quite a few on The Hill.

- ft

 

[Martial Tucker]

Just an interesting fact... the National Coalition for the Homeless reports that "approximately 20-25% of the homeless population suffer from sort of severe and persistent mental illness." Only 22% of the American population suffers from mental illness.

OK, so this confirms the hypothesis that that mental illness is no more prevalent among the homeless than in the general population.

My point in my earlier post is that to pre-judge someone solely by their appearance is not only unfair, but potentially dangerous to the person doing the judging. I totally agree with the statement that you should be leery when ANY stranger approaches you. I'm aware of everyone around me when I walk down the street regardless of whether they approach me or not. If they do approach me, I'm as suspicious of the teenage girl as I am the filthy guy holding out a cup. We've certainly had our share of vicious
attacks by homeless people on unaware pedestrians here in Chicago, but even though I don't have the statistics in front of me, I'm willing to bet a lunch and a few pints that you are more likely to be attacked by someone
who does not look dangerous or potentially threatening at first glance.

 

[funnytiger]

OK, so this confirms the hypothesis that that mental illness is no more prevalent among the homeless than in the general population.

My point in my earlier post is that to pre-judge someone solely by their appearance is not only unfair, but potentially dangerous to the person doing the judging. I totally agree with the statement that you should be leery when ANY stranger approaches you. I'm aware of everyone around me when I walk down the street regardless of whether they approach me or not. If they do approach me, I'm as suspicious of the teenage girl as I am the filthy guy holding out a cup. We've certainly had our share of vicious
attacks by homeless people on unaware pedestrians here in Chicago, but even though I don't have the statistics in front of me, I'm willing to bet a lunch and a few pints that you are more likely to be attacked by someone
who does not look dangerous or potentially threatening at first glance.

i'm going to disagree. and to say that "mental illness is no more prevalent among the homeless than in the general population" is a bit misleading when compared the population of the u.s. that is actually homeless. again, my experience is different with the homeless and i wouldn't expect anyone to agree with something they haven't experienced themselves. but its also important for all of us to keep in mind that our experiences as individuals are not a reflection of all of society. (including mine.) that's why we have statistics and (hopefully) impartial individuals to interpret them.

also, I agree completely with this statement: "I'm willing to bet a lunch and a few pints that you are more likely to be attacked by someone who does not look dangerous or potentially threatening at first glance" considering that most women who are either raped or sexually assualted is by either a friend or aquaintance. I'm not saying your wrong for suspecting that the seemingly innocent school girl on the corner might be packing heat, but rather that you shouldn't say that appearances should simply be disregarded. i don't think the saying, "you can't judge a book by its cover" is completely accurate. sometimes you can. :lookie: