I would never want to be without my....
- Thread starter Lisa
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Archangel M
Senior Master
A good carbine is good up close and personal and out as far as the average rifleman can hit. Bushmaster, Rock River, and some other M4geries do the trick just fine. A pistol to fight my way to a rifle. Glock is my fave. And a knife to fight my way to a pistol or rifle.
The Tank? Who wouldnt want a tank? M1A1 of course.
The Tank? Who wouldnt want a tank? M1A1 of course.
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tellner
Senior Master
As I've said in the past, the "knowledge and wisdom" bit is a ******** copout, not an answer. We're all grownups. We all agree that you need to know what you're doing and have the sense to avoid doing anything stupid. The not-so-hidden subtext with answers like this is "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter." That may be true. Knowledge will help you swing a sword or spot a weakness. It won't poke holes or crush skulls.
Lisa is very articulate and says what she means. If she wanted to know what faculties and abilities do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.
Lisa is very articulate and says what she means. If she wanted to know what faculties and abilities do you find most important I'm sure she would have said so. I would have provided a reference to the late great Colonel Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense which explains it better than any of us could ever hope to equal.
Archangel M
Senior Master
Man! We need to skip the politics and talk martial arts! Im with you there. :asian:
******** cop-out?
How is your opinion better than mine or anyone else?
While I agree that putting holes into people with your fingers or pens or knives or projectiles are not what people do on a daily basis. The comment that they are holier than though is unjustified and unproven with your argument / statements. That is your opinion and how you feel.
So why do you feel grubbier? I do not feel dirty or ashamed for my actions or words.
*sighs*
A knife, gun, sword, tank, grenade, A-bomb, kiddie porn, biological weapon, whatever ... in the hands of someone who doesn't know what the **** they're doing? Yeah, that's effective.
Planting kiddie porn undetected on someone's computer or planting evidence or using biochemical weaponry takes intelligence. So does when to use a knife and when to use a gun.
tellner said:
Tellner ... why do you do this? To incite argument? To bait? I'd argue that the sentence you typed here does exactly what you're claiming my stated value of knowledge is doing. I will not allow you to wedge your words into my mouth ... please stop doing that.
I would argue that it is direct trollish behavior.
I would report it as such, but until there is an issue made of something posted I guess then it is not really an issue.
I would try negative feedback with comments of discussion, but that would get me insults and having multiple people hit me with negative reputation comments stating I am attacking TEllner.
For some reason I tried to take people off my ignore list and to see if they have improved or maybe I was having a bad week when I put them on my list.
But then I started thinking (* I know dangerous and it does hurt
but on a serious note *), why does he get to express his opinion and I do not. Why do I have to stay quiet to keep him and his friends happy?
Archangel M
Senior Master
Why the assumption that anybody is untrained or doesnt know what they are doing? I thought that training or skill was assumed as this is the weapons forum.
While a bit crass and confrontational, Tellners point, if Im understanding it correctly, has some weight. I think hes touching on the point that some martial artists seem to believe that their superior "training" and their bare hands or some archaic weapon are going to be "all they need". That someone who mentions a gun is some sort of Rebel Flag waving *gasp* Republican *gasp* with an NRA bumper sticker. I suggest that any wizened Martial Warrior Sage of the ancient past would have adopted and made an art of the Pistol or Rifle as quickly as they did the Sword or the Bow. Back then it was about what WORKED. It seems that the modern version of martial arts is about other issues. While attitude, knowledge etc ARE all important, even vital, not all weapons are created equal. If they were we would still be using swords and bows. As a matter of fact, what helped bring the gun to preeminence was the fact that you didnt need years of training to be effective. A few hours can make you "combat effective" with a gun. No so much with a sword or a Sai.
So since the question was based on an "if you were going into danger what weapon would you take" statement. And this is the Weapons forum. I agree with Tellner. Id take the most effective one I could handle. And I can handle the ones I mentioned.
The Tank would be a reach though. Unless it has an M2 mounted on top.
tellner
Senior Master
Shesulsa, since you ask I'll tell you as honestly as I possibly can. It's going to be a little long and involved because I want to be clear.
When weapons are involved there's almost no honest way to avoid the subject. A sword is fundamentally a tool for cutting or stabbing in ways which will kill or cripple. A gun makes holes in people. A club breaks bones. The beauty of the arrow's flight ends with it sticking out of someone. You can certainly make the practice a way of self perfection just like you can flower arranging or serving tea. The actions and the tool still represent an ugly reality and a destructive power.
Ask a bunch of smiths "If you wanted to make an anchor what are the tools you wouldn't want to be without?" None of them would say "knowledge" or "skill at the forge". Everyone knows that you need those. It's assumed. They'd say something like "a three pound cross-peen hammer, a shop anvil at least 200 pounds with no horseshoeing clip, a hold down, a straight cutting hardy, a hot set, a six pound sledge, a hold down, at least one assistant, a mandrel and a Centaur Forge's #2 swedge block". There would be all sorts of discussions about the particulars of the tools. But anyone with familiarity and some skill would give answers in that general vicinity.
If you ask someone "What do you like to hit with when you spar?" or "What's your favorite part of that form?" he or she will answer "the backfist" or "the heel" or "the sequence half way through that starts with a turning kick and a parry and ends with an extended cat stance". You'll never hear "The knowledge of how to hit" or "My mind, because the form is a mental construction". People who don't do a lot of hitting are happy to say "Striking's not my forte".
With weapons it's a whole different thing. Some will say "My martial art doesn't deal with them very much" and leave it at that. But you can count on a large fraction to throw it back by saying that their favorite weapon is something non-physical. It's almost always "knowledge", "wisdom" or "calm". It's an answer you only get when the discussion is getting close to issues of force and power, life and death and the ability to preserve the former by potentially taking the latter.
That's why I say it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly. And it is a praiseworthy personal quality rather than a tool or attribute normally associated with prevailing over another in direct conflict. One never hears equally valid but more direct answers like "ruthlessness", "tenacity", "total commitment" or "the willingness to be cut down as long as I can do the same to him".
The expletive is there because the response is perfectly designed to make one who responds directly to the question appear less wise, less advanced and overly concerned with physical things. It's a first cousin to the case of the student who asks "Can you use your art to fight?" and receives the reply "The highest form of martial art is not to fight." It may or may not be true. But it doesn't answer the question and by implication belittles both the person who asks it and another who gives a straight answer such as "yes", "no", "I don't know" or "most of the time so far".
Whenever I've pursued it with someone it's alwys led back to one of two basic positions.
Some people really have gone all the way through. They're comfortable with weapons and what they mean. The fact that what they do can cause deadly violence has been internalized and is a matter of choice, not anxiety or avoidance. They're intimately familiar and have developed real skillls to the point where the weapon and its use are understood and implied. The things that concern them are on different levels because they've already passed through the earlier stages and mastered the tools. People at that level of development are rare.
The other sort is not familiar or comfortable with the issues surrounding violence and deadly force or the tools which make such things easier. Weapons as weapons are at least somewhat alien to them. Many people at those stages are aware of it and respond accordingly. A large number is not so self aware and papers it over by avoiding the issue, usually in a radical fashion which denies the validity of the question and the value of considering it in depth. One way is to assume the language of people of the first type without having the chops.
When people won't give a straight answer to something straightforward they probably aren't comfortable with or prepared for the question.
And that's the truth as clearly as these very fallible eyes can see it.
Weapons and what they represent - the power to take a life - are a really touchy issue for a lot of martial artists. In pretty much any aspect of the martial arts up to there a person can avoid the thornier issues. You can hit someone or lock him or spar or just about anything up to twisting his neck until it dislocates without getting too close to the bone. Almost all empty hand techniques can be dialed down to the point where they are painful or even injure people. But they don't have to come close to deadly force.
When weapons are involved there's almost no honest way to avoid the subject. A sword is fundamentally a tool for cutting or stabbing in ways which will kill or cripple. A gun makes holes in people. A club breaks bones. The beauty of the arrow's flight ends with it sticking out of someone. You can certainly make the practice a way of self perfection just like you can flower arranging or serving tea. The actions and the tool still represent an ugly reality and a destructive power.
Ask a bunch of smiths "If you wanted to make an anchor what are the tools you wouldn't want to be without?" None of them would say "knowledge" or "skill at the forge". Everyone knows that you need those. It's assumed. They'd say something like "a three pound cross-peen hammer, a shop anvil at least 200 pounds with no horseshoeing clip, a hold down, a straight cutting hardy, a hot set, a six pound sledge, a hold down, at least one assistant, a mandrel and a Centaur Forge's #2 swedge block". There would be all sorts of discussions about the particulars of the tools. But anyone with familiarity and some skill would give answers in that general vicinity.
If you ask someone "What do you like to hit with when you spar?" or "What's your favorite part of that form?" he or she will answer "the backfist" or "the heel" or "the sequence half way through that starts with a turning kick and a parry and ends with an extended cat stance". You'll never hear "The knowledge of how to hit" or "My mind, because the form is a mental construction". People who don't do a lot of hitting are happy to say "Striking's not my forte".
With weapons it's a whole different thing. Some will say "My martial art doesn't deal with them very much" and leave it at that. But you can count on a large fraction to throw it back by saying that their favorite weapon is something non-physical. It's almost always "knowledge", "wisdom" or "calm". It's an answer you only get when the discussion is getting close to issues of force and power, life and death and the ability to preserve the former by potentially taking the latter.
That's why I say it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly. And it is a praiseworthy personal quality rather than a tool or attribute normally associated with prevailing over another in direct conflict. One never hears equally valid but more direct answers like "ruthlessness", "tenacity", "total commitment" or "the willingness to be cut down as long as I can do the same to him".
The expletive is there because the response is perfectly designed to make one who responds directly to the question appear less wise, less advanced and overly concerned with physical things. It's a first cousin to the case of the student who asks "Can you use your art to fight?" and receives the reply "The highest form of martial art is not to fight." It may or may not be true. But it doesn't answer the question and by implication belittles both the person who asks it and another who gives a straight answer such as "yes", "no", "I don't know" or "most of the time so far".
Whenever I've pursued it with someone it's alwys led back to one of two basic positions.
Some people really have gone all the way through. They're comfortable with weapons and what they mean. The fact that what they do can cause deadly violence has been internalized and is a matter of choice, not anxiety or avoidance. They're intimately familiar and have developed real skillls to the point where the weapon and its use are understood and implied. The things that concern them are on different levels because they've already passed through the earlier stages and mastered the tools. People at that level of development are rare.
The other sort is not familiar or comfortable with the issues surrounding violence and deadly force or the tools which make such things easier. Weapons as weapons are at least somewhat alien to them. Many people at those stages are aware of it and respond accordingly. A large number is not so self aware and papers it over by avoiding the issue, usually in a radical fashion which denies the validity of the question and the value of considering it in depth. One way is to assume the language of people of the first type without having the chops.
When people won't give a straight answer to something straightforward they probably aren't comfortable with or prepared for the question.
And that's the truth as clearly as these very fallible eyes can see it.
I've revealed much on these forums - more than I ever really intended to. I'm not obligated to reveal any more about my intention, preferences nor anything else than I feel necessary. If you don't like my answer then that's really just too bad. I don't care if you think I'm an unprepared idiot, a fake, a wannabee, or lacking in linguistics.
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day.
Well going in the direction the thread has taken.....
I do stand by my original answer--it will matter not one whit if I have my "favorite" weapon to hand or not if I'm not prepared, without question, to use it for its intended purpose at the critical instant. Blackness of heart and will to act it is, then.
If a physical description is insisted upon--there's really not too much my H2H, folding knife and fully loaded 1911 couldn't handle from a civilian perspective where I live.
If I need more than that, there's not much more I'd realistically bump into that my Mossberg 590A1 wouldn't dispatch or discourage awful quick.( Something about the pump being racked on a shotgun with a bayonet mounted that just seems to make people Sit Down and Be Quiet).
If something occurs where all of that will do me no good then, frankly I'm likely toast no matter WHAT i would have brought. *shrug* But i don't intend on going down easily.....or alone.
I do stand by my original answer--it will matter not one whit if I have my "favorite" weapon to hand or not if I'm not prepared, without question, to use it for its intended purpose at the critical instant. Blackness of heart and will to act it is, then.
If a physical description is insisted upon--there's really not too much my H2H, folding knife and fully loaded 1911 couldn't handle from a civilian perspective where I live.
If I need more than that, there's not much more I'd realistically bump into that my Mossberg 590A1 wouldn't dispatch or discourage awful quick.( Something about the pump being racked on a shotgun with a bayonet mounted that just seems to make people Sit Down and Be Quiet).
If something occurs where all of that will do me no good then, frankly I'm likely toast no matter WHAT i would have brought. *shrug* But i don't intend on going down easily.....or alone.
If you give someone a gun and they don't know how to take off the safety, what amunition it takes, how to clear or reload it, and you might as well give them a rock. If you ask me what I need to make an anchor I'll tell you a heavy weight and something to tie it too.
Maybe you like the terms strategy and tactics better than knowledge? You're assuming that the people who have weapons know how to use them, how much training do you assume they have? Where they're instructor's any good? Have they been practicing? Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.
OP
OP
Although I find tellner's delivery somewhat brutal at times, (he has a tendency to get peoples hackles up) he is right about my intention with this thread. That is not to say I am not thankful for everyone's post here and I do believe knowledge and wisdom are important in any violative situation. I tried really hard to start a conversation regarding what "weapon" you would use and by putting it in the "weapons" section I thought that would be the responses I would see. If I was unclear, then I apologize to all who have responded and will strive to be more clear in the future.
One thing I would like to point out is, I believe everyone's responses are reflective of who they are and their experiences. I find that very interesting indeed. It doesn't make their answers right or wrong, just different and I think we need to look at everyone's point of view, take what we need from their knowledge and formulate what we can use to protect ourselves. Take Kenpotex for example. I already know how armed Matt is. Although his arsenal is not for me, the fact that he uses his weapons in an every day situation makes him someone I believe could tell me that this knife is crap or that one is really good. Just as I would take the word of any other poster who has been in a volatile situation and got out safely as having something to contribute, even if their answer was "my wits" and "experiences" because that is what saved them.
So lets continue with our conversation, for I have learned alot and would like to know more about the weapons you chose and why. You all are highly intelligent members of this forum and I don't want to see this thread derailed or reported because of a few words.
kidswarrior
Senior Master
My good sense tells me to stay miles away from the swamp which this discussion has become, but since Lisa so generously explicated a little more of her intention, I'll give it one more go.
I work in a County, as in public, school system. The baddest of the bad boys are my students (any worse and they get juvenile prison--not short term detention, but multiple years). We staff are not allowed to bring much more than nail clippers in the way of anything bladed or pointed, and bring a firearm, even in your trunk with a CC permit, and you're dust. To complicate this, many of the outsiders who *beef* with those in the class and whom I've personally seen, interacted with, confronted, and yes, managed to stand down, may be minors in the eyes of the law, even though that hasn't stopped them from bringing firearms, tire irons, and more shanks than one could count, when they prepare to ambush some of my students after school. So answers to the OP like *tank* are a little over the top for me--cartoonish even--when I can't even carry a blade longer than a couple of inches.
So, yes, I've taken nothing but my wits, knowledge, intuition, whatever, to more than one gunfight. Someone may want to again disparage that as a non-answer, but it's my reality. I seem to lose about one kid a year to such stupidity and cowardice, but have managed to not lose more. Did I play a hand in that, with said wits, etc....? I don't know. But if violence was avoided, I do know I did everything an unarmed man could do. In the service of absolute truth, it should be noted I did discover the combat cane along the way, and that's even legal with the TSA.
So what weapon would/do I take to gang fights, jumpings, racial violence as it erupts? A good stick is what I can justify, along with every scrap of experience and knowledge that I have been able to garner in two decades of doing this work.
But enough. Today's the final day of the very long school year (11 months), and if things are going to go sideways, then today--after school at the end of the year--will be the time. So, once again I'll live by my wits and hope it's enough. And if that's not a good enough answer for some in this thread, well then, I can live with that.
I work in a County, as in public, school system. The baddest of the bad boys are my students (any worse and they get juvenile prison--not short term detention, but multiple years). We staff are not allowed to bring much more than nail clippers in the way of anything bladed or pointed, and bring a firearm, even in your trunk with a CC permit, and you're dust. To complicate this, many of the outsiders who *beef* with those in the class and whom I've personally seen, interacted with, confronted, and yes, managed to stand down, may be minors in the eyes of the law, even though that hasn't stopped them from bringing firearms, tire irons, and more shanks than one could count, when they prepare to ambush some of my students after school. So answers to the OP like *tank* are a little over the top for me--cartoonish even--when I can't even carry a blade longer than a couple of inches.
So, yes, I've taken nothing but my wits, knowledge, intuition, whatever, to more than one gunfight. Someone may want to again disparage that as a non-answer, but it's my reality. I seem to lose about one kid a year to such stupidity and cowardice, but have managed to not lose more. Did I play a hand in that, with said wits, etc....? I don't know. But if violence was avoided, I do know I did everything an unarmed man could do. In the service of absolute truth, it should be noted I did discover the combat cane along the way, and that's even legal with the TSA.
So what weapon would/do I take to gang fights, jumpings, racial violence as it erupts? A good stick is what I can justify, along with every scrap of experience and knowledge that I have been able to garner in two decades of doing this work.
But enough. Today's the final day of the very long school year (11 months), and if things are going to go sideways, then today--after school at the end of the year--will be the time. So, once again I'll live by my wits and hope it's enough. And if that's not a good enough answer for some in this thread, well then, I can live with that.
My good sense tells me to stay miles away from the swamp which this discussion has become, but since Lisa so generously explicated a little more of her intention, I'll give it one more go.
I work in a County, as in public, school system. The baddest of the bad boys are my students (any worse and they get juvenile prison--not short term detention, but multiple years). We staff are not allowed to bring much more than nail clippers in the way of anything bladed or pointed, and bring a firearm, even in your trunk with a CC permit, and you're dust. To complicate this, many of the outsiders who *beef* with those in the class and whom I've personally seen, interacted with, confronted, and yes, managed to stand down, may be minors in the eyes of the law, even though that hasn't stopped them from bringing firearms, tire irons, and more shanks than one could count, when they prepare to ambush some of my students after school. So answers to the OP like *tank* are a little over the top for me--cartoonish even--when I can't even carry a blade longer than a couple of inches.
So, yes, I've taken nothing but my wits, knowledge, intuition, whatever, to more than one gunfight. Someone may want to again disparage that as a non-answer, but it's my reality. I seem to lose about one kid a year to such stupidity and cowardice, but have managed to not lose more. Did I play a hand in that, with said wits, etc....? I don't know. But if violence was avoided, I do know I did everything an unarmed man could do. In the service of absolute truth, it should be noted I did discover the combat cane along the way, and that's even legal with the TSA.
So what weapon would/do I take to gang fights, jumpings, racial violence as it erupts? A good stick is what I can justify, along with every scrap of experience and knowledge that I have been able to garner in two decades of doing this work.
But enough. Today's the final day of the very long school year (11 months), and if things are going to go sideways, then today--after school at the end of the year--will be the time. So, once again I'll live by my wits and hope it's enough. And if that's not a good enough answer for some in this thread, well then, I can live with that.
The school I teach in isn't quite as bad as the one kidswarrior is in - if only because the kids are younger - but like him, I am not allowed any weapons longer than a 2" knife... in fact, I pulled out my Swiss Army knife once to fix the pencil sharpener, and one of my students reported me to the principal for having a weapon in school (it was dismissed - the principal came down to the class and explained the difference between a 1" pen knife in the hands of a teacher and the 6" or longer knives taken from the kids). So I don't think in terms of weapons, except for whatever might be around that I can pick up on the spur of the moment - which, in my classroom, would mean pencils; after that, I'm up to student desks, and they're a bit awkward
. So I must, perforce, rely on my training - that is, my hands and feet - because I can't bring anything else with me. Sure, I could mock up something; I could have a kubiton or something similar that's not recognized as a "weapon" under state law - but that's not what I train with (although perhaps I should), and reaching for a weapon wouldn't be my first reaction if I needed something.
For me to have a gun would be pointless - I've never used one; I've never so much as held a real gun (although a friend of mine has offered to teach me, and we're looking for a time that works for both of us). A knife wouldn't be much better, as I've trained in knife defense and therefore picked up a few things about knife attacks - but I've rarely trained with a knife, so again, my first reaction would not be to go for a knife if I needed to defend myself.
This is not intended, in any way, to be, as tellner put it "I am pure, refined and wiser than you, oh bloodthirsty gunman. I rely on the subtle qualities while you are grubbing about in base matter" - rather, it is a recognition of the fact that I don't know what the hell to do with these weapons if I had them - so I will stick with the ones I know, the ones I have trained with, because those are the ones I'd get the best outcome from.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Ahh but you are assuming that we are all approaching this form the same POV you are.
When I say my brain I am approaching it form the POV that it is not a good thing to go into any situation mindlessly and it is certainly not a good idea to mindlessly use a weapon. Obviously one should not use a weapon they have little or no training in, that is incredibly stupid and likely not going to help you much either. But even trained without the proper mind set the weapon is useless. It may be comforting to have your hand on the 45 when confronted but if you can't bring yourself to use it then it is of little use. I have to be honest here, I am pretty sure I could hit or kick someone rather hard; I could even hit them rather hard with a staff. But I am not certain I could stab or cut someone so why carry a knife? I am only slightly more confident that I might be able to shoot someone so carrying a gun.... maybe.
And from what I have read in this entire thread, IMO, the best and most realistic and least litigation answers have come for kidswarrior, intuition and a big stick.
If you use your brain and follow your gut (intuition) it is likely you can avoid many situations all together. But if you can't a big stick works rather well too.
I don't trust myself with a weapon. I am not trained in any, except very limited knife techniques, limited arnis stick training, and some staff. Not enough to be proficient in any of them.
I have fired a gun a couple times, but that's not enough for me to be comfortable carrying one. Pocket knives seem to be a popular choice, but again, while easy to carry and effective in the right hands, I don't have enough training to prevent the weapon from being used against me.
The best I could hope for is to use an empty hand technique to buy me enough time to get the hell out of there, or maybe use a key to gouge an eye or something. I wish I could answer this question the way it was asked, but it makes me realize alot of people do have weapons training, it's something I'm lacking, and it's a good thing to have.
Yeah, I'll just be staying out of dark alleys and rough bars for now thank you.
I have fired a gun a couple times, but that's not enough for me to be comfortable carrying one. Pocket knives seem to be a popular choice, but again, while easy to carry and effective in the right hands, I don't have enough training to prevent the weapon from being used against me.
The best I could hope for is to use an empty hand technique to buy me enough time to get the hell out of there, or maybe use a key to gouge an eye or something. I wish I could answer this question the way it was asked, but it makes me realize alot of people do have weapons training, it's something I'm lacking, and it's a good thing to have.
Yeah, I'll just be staying out of dark alleys and rough bars for now thank you.
