I would never want to be without my....

kwaichang

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My Kubotan or my Pro-Tek Key..

Hey, another who carries this invention. I've carried it since T. Kuboda invented it; took a two day course at S&W to be certified on how to use it and have carried it ever since. Of course two yrs. after that they realized it could be a weapon and wouldn't let me take it on board; I took it back to the car as I knew I'd never see it again if I gave it to the screeners (this was way before TSA).

But baring flying, I carry it with a lot of keys on it. In this manner it can be used as a metsabushi strike.
 

shesulsa

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Take Kenpotex for example. I already know how armed Matt is. Although his arsenal is not for me, the fact that he uses his weapons in an every day situation makes him someone I believe could tell me that this knife is crap or that one is really good. Just as I would take the word of any other poster who has been in a volatile situation and got out safely as having something to contribute, even if their answer was "my wits" and "experiences" because that is what saved them.

So lets continue with our conversation, for I have learned alot and would like to know more about the weapons you chose and why. You all are highly intelligent members of this forum and I don't want to see this thread derailed or reported because of a few words.

Anyone ... anyone ... who reads what I post ... :shrug: ... *knows* what my weapon of choice is. Should I find myself without it, I want to know what I can make use of in my environment wherever I am. I want the hours of practice I did put in. I want the ability to alter technique for the moment and the person. Knowledge is my best answer - sorry if that offends anyone.

:asian:
 

kwaichang

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jitcrunch.aspx
 

mook jong man

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I'm in Australia where we are totally dis-armed and only the police and the bad guys have weapons.
I have my fighting stick in the car which is illegal and i also carry a small plastic hand weapon called the stinger which over here would be classified as a knuckleduster which is also illegal.
I carry these things because i believe the chance of my wife and i being attacked by numerous young guys in a car is greater than the police finding me with these weapons.
But if we had the same laws as America you better believe i would be carrying a firearm or a knife, over here if your found with a knife the maximum penalty is 14 years jail, i don't know if anybody has ever done that time but it doesn't seem to deter young wannabee gangsters from running around with Glocks and knives they just seem to get a slap on the wrist and let back out again.
 

kwaichang

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Yeah, we NRA members here watched as your populace let their elected representatives take away your rights and the ensuing stories about crime since have not been pleasant.
Maybe you'll get a chance to change things next election.
 

tellner

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Empty Hands, the Mossberg 590 12 gauge pump shotgun has a lug that fits the m-7 and m-9 bayonets. It gives one the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces.
 

kwaichang

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:rules:Well I suppose the question was open ended enough to allow for military style weaponry which is not available to every day citizens to carry on the way to Wal-Mart; I just didn't interpret it that way.:headbangin:
 

Andy Moynihan

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:rules:Well I suppose the question was open ended enough to allow for military style weaponry which is not available to every day citizens to carry on the way to Wal-Mart; I just didn't interpret it that way.:headbangin:


Well it's as I said, the 590's for if, by some malevolent twist of fate, I am given to understand in our hypothetical situation that I must enter into, that dialing 1-9-1-1 will not be enough. Which is a pretty scary realization by itself as, I suppose, my 1911 *is* the closest thing I have to a "favorite" weapon.(To me they're all just tools, even though certain tools handle better in my particular grip).
 

Rich Parsons

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Shesulsa, since you ask I'll tell you as honestly as I possibly can. It's going to be a little long and involved because I want to be clear.

I prefer longer and better formed arguments.


Weapons and what they represent - the power to take a life - are a really touchy issue for a lot of martial artists. In pretty much any aspect of the martial arts up to there a person can avoid the thornier issues. You can hit someone or lock him or spar or just about anything up to twisting his neck until it dislocates without getting too close to the bone. Almost all empty hand techniques can be dialed down to the point where they are painful or even injure people. But they don't have to come close to deadly force.

And I contend that people with the right skill set can do the same with a weapon. Not all strikes need to be deadly. Some could be permanent damage but not deadly, by default.


When weapons are involved there's almost no honest way to avoid the subject. A sword is fundamentally a tool for cutting or stabbing in ways which will kill or cripple. A gun makes holes in people. A club breaks bones. The beauty of the arrow's flight ends with it sticking out of someone. You can certainly make the practice a way of self perfection just like you can flower arranging or serving tea. The actions and the tool still represent an ugly reality and a destructive power.

You say ugly reality. I call it reality. No ugly and no beauty is involved.

Ask a bunch of smiths "If you wanted to make an anchor what are the tools you wouldn't want to be without?" None of them would say "knowledge" or "skill at the forge". Everyone knows that you need those. It's assumed. They'd say something like "a three pound cross-peen hammer, a shop anvil at least 200 pounds with no horseshoeing clip, a hold down, a straight cutting hardy, a hot set, a six pound sledge, a hold down, at least one assistant, a mandrel and a Centaur Forge's #2 swedge block". There would be all sorts of discussions about the particulars of the tools. But anyone with familiarity and some skill would give answers in that general vicinity.

As an engineer I like my pen. I also like the M1A2 tank I worked on in the early 90's, but I made the presumption that such a weapon would not be considered normal. i.e. cost and limited access and training to use.



If you ask someone "What do you like to hit with when you spar?" or "What's your favorite part of that form?" he or she will answer "the backfist" or "the heel" or "the sequence half way through that starts with a turning kick and a parry and ends with an extended cat stance". You'll never hear "The knowledge of how to hit" or "My mind, because the form is a mental construction". People who don't do a lot of hitting are happy to say "Striking's not my forte".

When it comes to forms, I find very little useful to me. I can see the beauty in the movement and in the knowledge of knowing such a sequence.

But even though I do not like them(forms), I teach them and I can discuss them.

I also have no problems with discussing actual experiences and knowing when I got hurt the most was when my intent was not there. Or when I hesitated for the sake of lessoning the degree of reality they were about the meet.


With weapons it's a whole different thing. Some will say "My martial art doesn't deal with them very much" and leave it at that. But you can count on a large fraction to throw it back by saying that their favorite weapon is something non-physical. It's almost always "knowledge", "wisdom" or "calm". It's an answer you only get when the discussion is getting close to issues of force and power, life and death and the ability to preserve the former by potentially taking the latter.

This is a coherent statement with significant points that should be acknowledged and discussed.

For those who have never been in a life or death situation with a weapon on them or with them do not know of what they speak. I understand that training will help, but is not the same as actual experience. There was a person on this board previously that made the statement that no one would know what they would do in a life and death situation. I stated that while each situation is different, that I could based upon my experiences make the statement that I would act given the situation as described. Of course no one can react when they are assassinated from a distance without their knowledge.


That's why I say it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly. And it is a praiseworthy personal quality rather than a tool or attribute normally associated with prevailing over another in direct conflict. One never hears equally valid but more direct answers like "ruthlessness", "tenacity", "total commitment" or "the willingness to be cut down as long as I can do the same to him".

So, can I call you on being a cop-out as well? I have asked you on this thread a question and also on another thread in the past to explain your statements. But as you refuse to reply I have to assume that it is ok for you to Cop-out but not ok for others. This I find to be contradictory and makes all your statements including your opinions subject.


As to the your last sentence, I have stated many similar things in lots of other posts.


The expletive is there because the response is perfectly designed to make one who responds directly to the question appear less wise, less advanced and overly concerned with physical things. It's a first cousin to the case of the student who asks "Can you use your art to fight?" and receives the reply "The highest form of martial art is not to fight." It may or may not be true. But it doesn't answer the question and by implication belittles both the person who asks it and another who gives a straight answer such as "yes", "no", "I don't know" or "most of the time so far".

But it is ok for you to imply that others are less wise and advanced etcetera. Once again it is ok for you and not others.

As to not fighting, I personally agree it is the best form of self defense, which is to not be involved in the first place. But I see your point that those who are not prepared to take action or to make the choice are just in some form of delusion.

So once again I ask why is it ok for you to call people out but I cannot call you out? Why are you above reproach?


Whenever I've pursued it with someone it's alwys led back to one of two basic positions.

...

Some people really have gone all the way through. They're comfortable with weapons and what they mean. The fact that what they do can cause deadly violence has been internalized and is a matter of choice, not anxiety or avoidance. They're intimately familiar and have developed real skillls to the point where the weapon and its use are understood and implied. The things that concern them are on different levels because they've already passed through the earlier stages and mastered the tools. People at that level of development are rare.

Thank you for the recognition that those skill sets are rare. Yes it could be an arrogant comment, yet, I think it is just a fact in this case. I have used and had used upon me multiple weapon types. I will state that I feel comfortable with the stick and blade, but not with the firearm. Why not the firearm? I have not been in a situation where I had a firearm and the option of using one. I have been in situations where they had firearms, and shots were fired in multiple instances. Being shot at causes one to understand what it means to react, and in many cases the reaction is after the shot is fired and if you are hit so be hit. I have never been shot though.

So thank you with the caveat I state above.


The other sort is not familiar or comfortable with the issues surrounding violence and deadly force or the tools which make such things easier. Weapons as weapons are at least somewhat alien to them. Many people at those stages are aware of it and respond accordingly. A large number is not so self aware and papers it over by avoiding the issue, usually in a radical fashion which denies the validity of the question and the value of considering it in depth. One way is to assume the language of people of the first type without having the chops.

I understand your point.


When people won't give a straight answer to something straightforward they probably aren't comfortable with or prepared for the question.


So are you uncomfortable to give me answers to questions I have asked you in the past?


And that's the truth as clearly as these very fallible eyes can see it.


And this is how I see your post(s), you get to be insulting and call others out, but do not reply to others or me when we or I have issues with your posts as you seem to have issues here.

And so the truth I see is different then you are projecting.
 

shesulsa

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I've lived violence. I've gone without sleep in the war zone that was my home for weeks at a time. I've turned family members over to the police. Since I began training, I've abated a few power-over skirmishes ... enough to know what my psyche does in that situation and what my attacker will meet with at the end of my blade.

The battle is not only physical. Anyone who thinks all can be reduced to one tool, one item, one weapon ... is an utter FOOL.

I appreciate Lisa's focus on a tool ... an instrument, Tellner. But I don't appreciate your continued, repeated, condescending, unknowing suppositions just because I will not spew forth a plethora of empty threats and data sheets of tactical prowess.

Have fun waving it. I'm leaving this conversation.
 

arnisador

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[...]it's a copout. The participants consistently pull away from the difficult and unpleasant issue by identifying something non-threatening which makes one appear to be wise and studious. The answer is a change of subject which makes the speaker appear wiser and more cerebral than the person who answers the question directly.

I have to agree. It's the Rambo: First Blood Part II answer: "I've always believed that the mind is the most powerful weapon of all." It turns a vague question into a party-game. I am reminded of the Trivial Pursuit question: What did every human since the beginning of time die of? Answer: Lack of oxygen to the brain. To all those who answered knowledge/brain/intuition/etc., I ask: Surely you wouldn't go in there without an adequate supply of oxygen???

Indeed, it's a change of subject and a form of one-upmanship. This is already not an especially deep subject for a thread, but the first few people listing a weapon on the first page gave brief explanations for their choice, whereas "Knowledge." is something of a thread-stopper. This leaves aside the question of whether it would be possible to go somewhere without your knowledge/brain/etc.

I didn't think tellner was inciting an argument or showing trollish behaviour. I thought his point was dead-on, and as this thread is a frequent "let's try to get some posts going here" thread starter, it comes up often enough to be worth addressing. It's about topicality (we are in a Weapons section, after all, and I understadn MT to mean "physical weapons" in its use of the term here). Would this thread be interesting to read if it was full of answers like "brain/mind/etc."? isn't it potentially more interesting when people are discussing the merits of different tools? Would anyone like to read a discussion of whether your brain is more important than your cardiovascular system in a violent encounter?

For those who chose personal abilities and training over weapons, I refer you to the Wikipedia entry on the Boxer Rebellion. But if you'd still prefer to be unarmed, please explain and support that position--don't drop in a one-word, holier-than-thou non-answer.

Knowledge and no how is all any one needs

And yet, the USMC issues its members rifles at great cost to the United States taxpayer.

Mind you, those listing tanks etc. are also not playing fair. But I suppose it's a matter of whether one wants a martial arts discussion or a "name a larger weapons systems" thread. Anyone care to jump straight to Imperial Death Star and win?
 

Andy Moynihan

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So lets continue with our conversation, for I have learned alot and would like to know more about the weapons you chose and why. .

A) I own them
B) I put in the time to stay reasonably competent with them
C) Both firearms I mentioned have reputations for reliability and stopping power and let's face it, no sane person argues with a shotgun even if it DOESN'T accept a bayonet :D.
 

arnisador

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You're assuming that the people who have weapons know how to use them, how much training do you assume they have?

Well, people were allowed to choose their own response here. It wasn't as though weapons were being assigned to them (in which case asking for training would be reasonable). If people choose a weapon on which they're not trained, that's likely a bad idea.
 

Andy Moynihan

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I didn't think tellner was inciting an argument or showing trollish behaviour. I thought his point was dead-on, and as this thread is a frequent "let's try to get some posts going here" thread starter, it comes up often enough to be worth addressing.

Todd's not a bad guy, just on some occasions he can be likened to an otherwise brilliant surgeon who nevertheless flunked bedside manner, is all. ;)
 

Archangel M

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Mind you, those listing tanks etc. are also not playing fair. But I suppose it's a matter of whether one wants a martial arts discussion or a "name a larger weapons systems" thread. Anyone care to jump straight to Imperial Death Star and win?

Hey now. I was kidding. :)

For those who did mention weapons. Ammunition choice is arguably as important as the weapon. This day and age most well manufactured weapons will perform at a level higher than the average shooter can "drive them". The projectile is what actually does the work at the other end. Automatics require specific choices for optimal mechanical performance, and terminal effects are important as well.
 

Archangel M

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If you give someone a gun and they don't know how to take off the safety, what amunition it takes, how to clear or reload it, and you might as well give them a rock. If you ask me what I need to make an anchor I'll tell you a heavy weight and something to tie it too.

Maybe you like the terms strategy and tactics better than knowledge? You're assuming that the people who have weapons know how to use them, how much training do you assume they have? Where they're instructor's any good? Have they been practicing? Assumption is the mother of all ****ups.

Ya know..we keep seeing this "how do you know THEY are trained" thing..the question is what would YOU take. "Knowledge" isnt the the anwser to that question.

With the knowledge you have, what would YOU take into "the **** storm"?

If the zombies are shambling down your block and the commie hordes are parachuteing into your backyard what would you take? What would you hope your neighbor has? Trained or not, if he can load it point it and pull it, Id want him manning the perimiter. If some nutjob starts shooting up the mall and the poor untrained citizen pulls his pistol and gets shot then at least he went out trying to defend himself, not hiding under a food court table praying the BG wont notice him.
 

kwaichang

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If the zombies are shambling down your block and the commie hordes are parachuteing into your backyard what would you take?

:uhyeah: and I thought I was the only one who thought like this.:lool:
 

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