Certainly appears that way, although I'm sure millions of smokers fly all the time and dont light up on a flight. But I could be wrong. Either way, I still stand by what I said...diplomat or not, that should not be a free pass to do whatever the hell he wants. I think its safe to say that were this you or I, we'd be locked up, facing a laundry list of charges.
How would you have restrained this guy?
- Thread starter Kittan Bachika
- Start date
Certainly appears that way, although I'm sure millions of smokers fly all the time and dont light up on a flight. But I could be wrong. Either way, I still stand by what I said...diplomat or not, that should not be a free pass to do whatever the hell he wants. I think its safe to say that were this you or I, we'd be locked up, facing a laundry list of charges.
Exactly!
And while we're putting him in the lock, choke, etc., and taking, er, I mean slamming him down, the 'accidental' shots can come into play. Ooppss....I'm sorry, I slipped and my knee just happened to land in the middle of your back. Opps...sorry, I lost my balance. Didn't mean to fall forward, driving my arm into the back of your head. 
Just for clarification, when I mentioned striking, I wasn't saying that we should start trading blows with the guy. Something more along the lines of a quick hit, more of a distraction to allow us to get the upper hand.
Amen!!!!
Thought I'd throw this into the mix. Pretty much any time we talk about SD, someone always mentions something about being careful with what we do, because if we're not, it'll look bad in the eyes of the courts, etc., etc. Now, if this joker is for some stupid reason, protected due to his 'status' then if someone were to grab him, slam him down, hit him, whatever, would we, as passengers of the plane, not knowing if its a terro attack, land ourselves in trouble for taking action?
Frankly, I really dont give a **** about him or his status. In a case like that, much like if I were to be attacked while getting into my car, I'm not really going to be thinking much, about the well being of the guy. That being said, to repeat the words that I've said before, and another member said: I'll deal with all of the other stuff after the fact, and I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Of course, if the plane crashes, I probably won't be carried anywhere.
Frankly, I really dont give a **** about him or his status. In a case like that, much like if I were to be attacked while getting into my car, I'm not really going to be thinking much, about the well being of the guy. That being said, to repeat the words that I've said before, and another member said: I'll deal with all of the other stuff after the fact, and I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Of course, if the plane crashes, I probably won't be carried anywhere.
searcher
Senior Master
I don't think this has been brought up, but have you all considered the environment that we would be slamming/choking/joint locking/not striking in. The last time I was on a plane, there was not enough room to do much other than strike. Or bone break. Environment is going to dictate the response here.
That is a very good point, and one that hasn't been mentioned until now. I would think that depending on where in the plane we are and the size of the plane, the space will probably vary. Shouldn't take too much room to get an effective lock and as for the slamming, well, I suppose he'd be slammed into the nearest hard object.
searcher
Senior Master
Nothing says give up like bouncing the back of his favorite head off of something metal several dozen times.
It appears that he enjoyed diplomatic immunity. There are different types and levels, but generally diplomats are immune from criminal prosecution at least while about official business.
Diplomatic immunity is an important and vital tool. It does get abused -- both by foreign diplomats here and, occasionally, by US diplomats overseas. We need our diplomats to be free from harassment by arrest and prosecution so that they can work, and it's a bit of quid pro quo: if we don't want our diplomats hassled, we can't hassle theirs.
There are different levels. Diplomats and their families enjoy full immunity. A diplomat can quite literally commit murder and not be prosecuted. They can receive traffic tickets -- but can't be compelled to pay them. (NYC has a huge problem with UN diplomats racking up huge stacks of parking tickets... and never paying a dime.)
Diplomatic staff have more limited immunity; sometimes it's nearly the same as the diplomat, in other cases it's limited to official acts.
Immunity can be (and is sometimes) waived, allowing prosecution to proceed. However, the more common act is to have the person in question removed from the country. It used to be almost funny, watching as the US would declare 4 staff from the Soviet Embassy persona non grata, so the Soviets would do the same to 4 of the US staff, or vice versa.
Hmm.
Well I could...no, joint locking and taking him down requires more room than a plane aisle or bathroom.....
Well it'll have to be....oh wait. For some bizzare and indefensible reason, I appear to be unable to strike him somehow.....
Well, i could try...oh wait, no, they won't let me have my pepper spray on the plane and in this cabin there's too much risk of blowover to innocents...
hmm....
Well that's all my nonlethal options exhausted.
To the best of my knowledge this person is about to blow up or attempt to blow up the plane.
I must assume he has ABILITY to carry out the threat( stating he wants to light his shoe on fire and being where no passenger is supposed to be).
I must assume he has the OPPORTUNITY to carry out the threat(he has sequestered himself in the bathroom and has a means( the cigarette which is forbidden to smoke on aircraft) to light a fuse.
I must assume that the JEOPARDY exists that if I wait any longer, our lives are at risk ( when questioned, he stated he was trying to light his shoe on fire--remember that from a legal standpoint, INTENTION means nothing, the PERCEPTION of a REASONABLE PERSON is all that matters).
And by the artificial rules of this thread all nonlethal options are PRECLUDED.
Right.
Twisting neck lock it is then, full speed, full torque.
I MAY be able to bring him to the ground if I pull and stretch him out some(apply the neck lock, maintain grip on his head and run down the aisle with him till he's flattened out), and *THEN* there *MIGHT* be a last shot at nonlethal by rear mounting, and slapping on a rear naked choke or a Mexican Surfboard on him till cuffs/restraints can be employed by a marshal, or his neck may( most likely) break. Either way, I do not have the LUXURY of giving a **** until I can be sure no bomb is gonna be triggered.
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Kittan Bachika
Purple Belt
From reading everyone's responses and articles online, withholding strikes does not make sense. You do what have to do to end it. Even if it means a couple of haymakers to the ribs,knee to the stomach or grabbing someone's lap top and smacking them across the head with it.
Forget I even mentioned it.
The strike banned has been striked off.
I appreciate everyone's opinions.
Forget I even mentioned it.
The strike banned has been striked off.
I appreciate everyone's opinions.
I could see waiving charges for something minor, ie: running a stop sign, but this, IMHO, is clearly an act that is much more serious.
Hey, I'm no legal expert, and I do value your comments and experience with the laws and stuff, so this is simply my disgust with the whole thing. I mean, as a LEO, theres that brotherhood, etc, but going on the logic they're using with this guy, it'd be like not arresting another officer for committing a serious crime. Now, I'm sure things get swept under the carpet, so to speak, in some cases, depending on what the nature of the incident is, but there are cops arrested all the time.
Diplomatic immunity is a pain in the ***; I've had to deal with it more than once. But it's a very important tool and principle. As I said, it can be waived -- and has been. For example, in 1997, after a Georgian diplomat driving drunk killed a young girl, the Republic of Georgia waived his immunity, and he was convicted. (His sentence was from 7 to 21 years for manslaughter; he apparently was permitted to be transferred to a Georgian prison after a couple of years here.)
Here is an interesting article about why immunity matters; there's obviously a lot of discussion in lots of places about the issue right now.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1283498&postcount=24
Just wondering about the questions that I asked here.
Just wondering about the questions that I asked here.
Diplomats can be such idiots sometimes. They know they can get away with breaking small laws, so they like to act like big shots. Hence why the guy had the balls to backtalk authorities, even though its illegal to smoke in a plane , and was making jokes of terrorists bombs, which can be easily be labeled a threat.
In NYC these idiots park anywhere, and no one can ticket them.
In NYC these idiots park anywhere, and no one can ticket them.
With handcuffs. Or Tuff-Ties. Or, if need be, with my shoelaces, in a handcuff knot. I'd use whatever force was necessary to subdue him; the details are just too variable. Probably use some strikes or head stuns to slow him down, and an arm lock to get things started... And if he bounces off a seat back or bulkhead... Well, that's just to darn bad. And his status? Well, that'd have to come to light later. And he's staying restrained as long as necessary for safety. Immunity or not.http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1283498&postcount=24
Just wondering about the questions that I asked here.
But... in this particular case, based on the accounts I've heard, probably wouldn't have had to do much more then tell him to sit still...
Kittan Bachika
Purple Belt
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1283498&postcount=24
Just wondering about the questions that I asked here.
I hope answered them.
I see where you are coming from. As martial artists we show restraint in our actions even self defense because we hear horror stories about the legal bulls**t that innocent people have to deal with.
Kajowaraku
Green Belt
how about locking his head between the toiletseat and the bowl than sit on it and wait for reinforcement? If he twitches: flush There's nothing like using the surroundings, hehe.
There's nothing like using the surroundings, hehe.
searcher
Senior Master
Would I hold back on the guy to keep from a POSSIBLE lawsuit? No way in the world.
If he is innocent, why was he breaking the rules? If he makes some crack about a terrorist attack, he should count his blessings. If he lives that long or can count anything after I am done.
We have to face it. No matter the nationality/race/religion/status, the guy is a scumbag and needs to be punished severely.
Now that we have striking, nothing stops a guy like a kick to the nether-regions or an elbows to the jaw. Or an nicely placed throat shot. Or repeated knees to anything I can make contact with.
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