How the punch can relate to the rest of the system
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Nothing here about the punch that is very different from what we teach. I did think he overstated the bit about just using the arm alone to power the punch ...at least until he clarified things a bit later on.
If I understand him correctly, he really means that initially they train arm-only punching to learn structure to prevent over-committing throwing the shoulder and body into the punch (think SNT). Then later on with turning and stepping, and finally, even elastic input from the shoulder and torso, you learn how to put more body power into the punch (Chum Kiu and Biu Tze).
So if that is what he is really getting at, I have no objection. But ultimately, I believe that good WC/VT/WT does hit with body power, not just arm power.
If I understand him correctly, he really means that initially they train arm-only punching to learn structure to prevent over-committing throwing the shoulder and body into the punch (think SNT). Then later on with turning and stepping, and finally, even elastic input from the shoulder and torso, you learn how to put more body power into the punch (Chum Kiu and Biu Tze).
So if that is what he is really getting at, I have no objection. But ultimately, I believe that good WC/VT/WT does hit with body power, not just arm power.
Danny T
Senior Master
My sifu often states; "we don't hit, we crash".
Taken the wrong way, that can be a bad thing. As, for example, if you punch someone repeatedly with your body ... striking them with your body squarely on their fist!
wingerjim
Green Belt
That is also what is taught where I study.
I've got no idea what WC theory/principles are, but I would find it hard to comprehend a system which does not involve the body to increase the power of any technique. Everything I've ever done, TKD, HKD Karate, Muay Thai, Judo, Aikido/Aikijujutsu... all of them develop power with the body, though they may talk about the "how" in slightly different language and nomenclature, it all ends up being the same concept.
APL76
Blue Belt
Just curious, did you get the impression that I was saying that we don’t gain power from the body? I’m just asking because I thought that I made it pretty clear that we build the punches in two stages. 1) By punching with the arm only, so disassociating the punch from the body and then 2) introducing power from the body via the turning stance. Point 1) is more a developmental tool for cultivating correct power generation in the punch, cultivating stability and avoidance of overextension of our attacks etc. and maintenance of good structure. Point 2) is really how everything will be applied through our wing chun; that is to say that all strikes, defences etc. will be powered with the entire body behind it driven by the turning stance.
So when I talk about that stuff in the video am I not being clear/difficult to understand?
So when I talk about that stuff in the video am I not being clear/difficult to understand?
The issue is if you are used to isolate your arm from your body, you will develop bad habit and you will need time to remove that bad habit later on.
IMO, just by using "turning stance" is far from enough. You will need:
- rotate your body,
- bend your leg and then straight your leg.
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APL76
Blue Belt
How so? What is the bad habit? The point is that the punch works in exactly the same way irrespective of whether you stand still of add the turn. You build power in the arm making sure you don’t compromise your structure or over reach your power while standing still in yi ji kim yeun ma. You then add the turning stance thus putting power into the punch from the hips and through the body. The punch itself is done in exactly the same way whether you turn or not. However if you try to force through power with the shoulder while you do it standing still the bad structure will be even worse, and opportunity’s for overreach to be exploited amplify. So what’s the bad habit to be undone?
I like to ask my students to punch while putting their arms behind the back. This way, they have no choice but to concentrate on how to move their "body" during a punch.
The bad habit is in fighting when you get nervous, you may forget to use your body, only use your hands, and you don't understand why your opponent is still standing and smile at you.
In all CMA, you want to develop "身法 (body method)". How your body should move is much more important than how your arm should move. Even if you may not move your feet when you punch, your elbow should still coordinate with your knee. Before your punch, your knee should be bending and your elbow should be bending. At the end of your punch, your knee should be straight and your elbow should be straight. That elbow and knee harmony is the most important part of the whole punching process in "static stance punch".
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APL76
Blue Belt
As for turning stance not being enough, all I can say is that the amount of power that can be generated, combined with, and sent through a strike from jun ma is immense. Unfortunately you are in the US, otherwise you could come and feel it (I mean in a friendly sort of way, check out what we do sort of thing, I’m not challenging anyone here). That’s really the best way to get an appreciation for it.
Rotating the body? Well jun ma does rotate the body, I presume you mean rotate the upper body around in relation to the hips??? If that’s what you mean then that’s exactly the kind of compromise to our structure we want to avoid. And bending and straightening the leg, I’m not really sure what you mean by that.
APL76
Blue Belt
We do use the body by combining the jun ma (turning stance) with the punch. Indeed I said above that the initial punching training is for development, once that’s done and adequate literally everything in our wing chun involves the use of firstly the body through application of jun man, this is then secondly combined with the footwork. How are we going to have a bad habbit of not using the body?
In CMA, we want to achieve the 6 harmonies. The outer 3 harmonies are:
1. hand coordinate with foot.
2. elbow coordinate with knee.
3. shoulder coordinate with hip.
IMO, the 2 that elbow coordinate with knee is the most important one (when your feet are not moving such as WC stance).
When you punch and your feet are not moving, your hand cannot coordinate with your foot. Your shoulder also cannot coordinate with your hip. The only thing you can do is to coordinate your elbow with your knee. This will force you to concentrate on your knee bending and knee straight process. If you ignore this in the early training stage, to obtain this kind of coordination will take you twice as much time and effort later on.
In the following clip, you can clearly see that his knee and elbow are "coordinated".
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APL76
Blue Belt
Well, fair enough if you want to do wing chun like that but in both the styles I do, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San we not only don’t move around up and down like that we actively try to avoid it and have plenty of techniques to exploit it in an opponent (mainly in the YKS version) and we don’t coordinate in the way you mention. We do it with hips, stance and hands. Everything relates back to the hips and stance and hands and feet must land together.
Here is a simple example.
If your body is used to do this - freeze your body and only move your arms:
You will have difficulty to change your body to do this later on - body unification:
APL76
Blue Belt
Here is a simple example.
If your body is used to do this - freeze your body and only move your arms:
You will have difficulty to change your body to do this later on - body unification:
Ok, so let me see if I understand you. You are saying that since, in the beginning, we learn the punch, and refine it, by being stationary, in the long run we will not be able to use the rest of our body in combination with the punch, or somehow forget to do so?
We may have the same "body unification" goal, but our paths are different.
1. Your path is to start from "free the body and only move the arm". You try to learn how to move your arm first. You don't mind to develop "body method" a bit later.
2. My path is to start from "freeze the arm and only move the body". I try to learn how to move my body first. I want to develop "body method" ASAP.
