How many of you train against firearms?

[MartialArtist]

? This should be an interesting thread, with the rising numbers.

Anyone have a CCW?
Anyone wear a concealed spectra or kevlar vest?
Any of you train in disarming?
Any of you practice shooting?

I know it's pretty much futile to try to disarm when the guy has a gun, but still.

 

[Greggers69]

I am still a lower belt so I personally haven't done it. But in later belts they do study how to attempt to stop an assailant from discharging a firearm. And not in my dojo, but i do go out shooting my firearms from time to time.

 

[Matt Stone]

Yiliquan has several defenses against a firearm wielding attacker. They are all intended as last ditch efforts, when you know you are likely to lose your life equally whether you act or not.

Their practice is begun early, to allow for more time to train them into instinct. The entire basis is to gain control over the hand holding the gun, and get it pointing someplace other than at you. Then you worry about other things...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Yiliquan has several defenses against a firearm wielding attacker. They are all intended as last ditch efforts, when you know you are likely to lose your life equally whether you act or not.

Their practice is begun early, to allow for more time to train them into instinct. The entire basis is to gain control over the hand holding the gun, and get it pointing someplace other than at you. Then you worry about other things...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

Yes, I understand...

But is the training with all types of weapons? Shotguns, rifles, and handguns? And if you do use a handgun, each handgun has its own special "feel" to it, just like a car. There are manual transmissions, autos, then each car has its own agility/maneuverability, speed, and power/torque ratings. In handguns, there are SAs, DAOs, SA/DAs, SA/DA revolvers, SA revolvers, grip safeties, hammerless, etc. Once you get the basics down, the rest should come easy.

First thing I remember doing way back in training, was hand-to-hand combat. Years of grueling punishment. Then I'd go on to rifles, and spent a lot of time on the M1s (Garand and Carbine) and the M14's. Then went on to shotguns and the hardest to bullseye with... Handguns. Especially when you have fixed sights (great for combat, not for bullseye competitions).

If you're going to disarm someone with a weapon as a last resort, in my opinion, one should at least be versed with firearms. To know what each and every gun is capable of, or whether the guy who's holding the gun has the safety off and such. It seems stupid, but to know what firearms are capable of what would make the disarming process a lot easier.

 

[phlaw]

I have studied the highly dangerous technique featured in the movie "The Last Dragon, which is catching the bullet in your teeth.

See here in a pic from my early training days.


http://phlawproductions.tripod.com/bulletpic.jpg

 

[Yari]

We've worked with disarming a person with a gun in Jujitsu, but I felt that it was kind of show-technique. We didn't have anybody who knew how to handle a gun, so it was a lot of winging it.

In Aikido we dont do it.

Never done it in Arnis either, alot of other weapons, but not firearms.

/Yari

 

[Wmarden]

I have a CCW.

I have a limited amount of training in disarms. But really disarms are pretty simple. Get the end the lead comes out of away from your body. No more different than any other block to one side or the other. Then taking the gun is where it gets interesting. Little turns of the wrist will generally take an object out of the attackers hand. Also consider a strike with a leg or unengaged hand. But really the best I can suggest is to practice. Alot. I cannot say I have enough practice. Yeah I would try it if I was staring down a gun, but things probably won't go great.

While we have not done it yet, there are wooden guns at my Sensei's dojo for practicing disarms.

As for disarms, better still is to be aware and not let them get that close. Work on awareness. Make it your daily preoccupation. Today I feel I did poorly in my awareness, but yesterday I did well(relative term). It is a skill that can be developed.

And with good awareness, hopefully I would be able to avoid a situation where I might be forced to use my firearms or other combat skills. Also by being aware, the predators may decide to hunt elsewhere, even if I have not yet oriented on them as a threat. That is another thing, do a walking threat assesment of everybody you meet.

As for firearms training, I try to shoot once a week with my pistols. I follow the advice of some and try to keep the session short(<100 rounds). I also dry fire another 3-4 nights a week. Dry firing is where you will build your skills. I can reccomend a couple of authors for firearms training books, Jeff Cooper and Gabe Suarez. There are other good books.

My firearms skills are not yet what I would consider good. I would consider them ok, or acceptable at best. I am working on improving my accuracy. An acceptable(well at least starting out) group is something that will keep it in COM at the range you are shooting. I have started at 5-7 yards as most encounters happen within that range. But since I am hoping to go into law enforcement, I plan on going out to 50+ yards because sometimes it happens. ANd there are other gunhandling skills such as reloads and clearing malfunctions. Those also must be practiced.

:soapbox: ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND FUNDAMENTAL SAFETY RULES WHEN TRAINING WITH FIREARMS :soapbox:

1. ALWAYS CONTROL YOUR MUZZLE.

2. KNOW YOUR TARGET AND BACKSTOP

3. DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO DESTROY SOMETHING.

4. DO NOT POINT A GUN AT ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY.


Even professionals get killed because of violations of these fundamental rules of safety.

 

[vin2k0]

i have studied karate for 9 years and have never defended against a gun. Simply because it would be a stupid thing to do. if a gun is pulled on you it would be highly unlikely that he would stand close enough for you to do anything about it. So that if you made any flase movement he could pull the trigger. It is advisable to never react when someone is holding a gun to you... a knife is a completely different thing, however... :karate:

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, Yilichuan teaches students the differences between a revolver and semi-auto handgun and provides rigorous training against handguns.

I do have a CCW although I haven't been able to shoot at all this past winter...
Even though I was the oldest deputy in my firearms class some time back, I ended up with the highest qualification score.

Having had handguns pulled on me in the past, I will disagree with the statement that people never stand very close to you when they do that. On every occasion (all three of them), the armed opponent was actually quite close.

It is true that it's a lot like parachuting. You can only screw it up once...but that's why we train so rigorously. It's a self-defense problem that our martial arts forefathers didn't have to worry about; a problem that was encountered in the 20th century...

Unfortunately, most firearm defenses have been developed by people who know little about firearms in the first place and who have never been looking down the business end of one (you could drive a Volkswagen down the muzzle of a handgun when it's pointed at you!), and who have never really delved into the psychological factors involved. It's a delicate thing and Yilichuan has studied it very extensively.

The fact that I'm still around and writing this reply indicates that these techniques are effective.

 

[Aegis]

I had just finished typing out a long reply to vin2k0's comment about a knife being easier t deal with than a gun, but my computer decided to hang and I lost it. Might try again later.

 

[theletch1]

I have a CCW. I haven't carried for quite some time though. The legal hassle to carry one anywhere anymore is ridiculous. I will rely on my mind and martial skils for protection.

We do have several gun defense techniques in my kwoon. I just got to start working on them when I made green. The first thing you are told is "If he wants your money, give him your money. If he wants your money AND your life, well that's where these techniques come in.

i have studied karate for 9 years and have never defended against a gun. Simply because it would be a stupid thing to do. if a gun is pulled on you it would be highly unlikely that he would stand close enough for you to do anything about it. So that if you made any flase movement he could pull the trigger. It is advisable to never react when someone is holding a gun to you... a knife is a completely different thing, however...

If an individual has had training in handgun use (police or military) then the chance that they would be close enough to react against is indeed slim. My training dictated that you keep some space between you and your target to avoid them being able to grab the weapon. If your assailant has only trained by watching gangster rap videos then that is a different story. Pulling a gun then becomes a time to look "cool", dig the muzzle into who ever you are intimidating and talk "smack" as my kids say.

It is not advisable to react when some one pulls a gun on you if you can feel that once he gets your money watch etc that he will take off running. However, there are a buttload of people out there nowadays who will put a bullet in your head just because they felt like it. If you don't react to this type of attack you may as well lay down in the middle of the higway. It's a matter of degree. You have to judge the degree of threat and react accordingly. I'm not gonna get myself killed over the few dollars I may have in my pocket but I'm sure as hell not gonna just roll over and die if I know that that is the intent of my attacker.

 

[Cryozombie]

We do gun disarms as well. We have techniques for both disarming a gun while It is pointed at you, and to stop the gun from being drawn if it is not. Some of the more advanced students were working on it last night, as a matter of fact, and I got to observe first hand (as the gun wielding assainant) how quick (and painful) some of the disarms can be.

One of the inmportant things they stress is not to let the assailant KNOW you are reacting... to make all your movements look like you are about to comply with him. Of course use that in a lot of our fighting... psychologicaly making the attacker think he has the upper hand...

I have a Kevlar vest, I occasionaly wear it if I am going downtown Chicago for an evening. I dont wear it all the time, it's not really practical. I have considered having my Biker Jacket armored, I found a couple places online you can send your coat to and they will add a liner to it up to threat level IV.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by vin2k0
i have studied karate for 9 years and have never defended against a gun. Simply because it would be a stupid thing to do. if a gun is pulled on you it would be highly unlikely that he would stand close enough for you to do anything about it. So that if you made any flase movement he could pull the trigger. It is advisable to never react when someone is holding a gun to you... a knife is a completely different thing, however... :karate:

O/T :
You have studied Karate for 9 years and yet you posted a question asking what the most effective MA is?????

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by yilisifu
.....Unfortunately, most firearm defenses have been developed by people who know little about firearms in the first place and who have never been looking down the business end of one (you could drive a Volkswagen down the muzzle of a handgun when it's pointed at you!), and who have never really delved into the psychological factors involved. ......

LMAO! Including many posted in this thread!! I LMAO at some of the BS defense posted here. Nothing to do with reality what so ever!

 

[Mark L]

We practice disarms against handguns from the front, side, and rear using a wooden replica, and only when the weapon is easily reachable. Never been in a real situation, but have practiced outside the dojo with real, unloaded weapons. They feel different than wood.

 

[dearnis.com]

yes, yes, yes, and yes.

See above comments reference Jeff Cooper; a must read for anyone serious in their martial studies.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Yes, I understand...

But is the training with all types of weapons? Shotguns, rifles, and handguns? And if you do use a handgun, each handgun has its own special "feel" to it, just like a car. There are manual transmissions, autos, then each car has its own agility/maneuverability, speed, and power/torque ratings. In handguns, there are SAs, DAOs, SA/DAs, SA/DA revolvers, SA revolvers, grip safeties, hammerless, etc. Once you get the basics down, the rest should come easy.

First thing I remember doing way back in training, was hand-to-hand combat. Years of grueling punishment. Then I'd go on to rifles, and spent a lot of time on the M1s (Garand and Carbine) and the M14's. Then went on to shotguns and the hardest to bullseye with... Handguns. Especially when you have fixed sights (great for combat, not for bullseye competitions).

If you're going to disarm someone with a weapon as a last resort, in my opinion, one should at least be versed with firearms. To know what each and every gun is capable of, or whether the guy who's holding the gun has the safety off and such. It seems stupid, but to know what firearms are capable of what would make the disarming process a lot easier.

Easy for you to show off....you ex-Military!

 

[A.R.K.]

Anyone have a CCW?
Anyone wear a concealed spectra or kevlar vest?
Any of you train in disarming?
Any of you practice shooting?

I know it's pretty much futile to try to disarm when the guy has a gun, but still


I carry off duty in accordance with state statutes. Either a Gock 30 [.45] or a Glock 19 [9mm]. On duty I use the agency issued Beretta 92 [9mm].

I wear an issued level II vest on duty.

I train academy recruits as well as personal students in multiple disarming techniques from various angles and positions as well as how to prevent a disarm.

I have two firearm Instructor certifications. First is a state FDLE Police firearms instructor certification. This allows me to teach academy recruits as well as in-service for veteran officers. The second is an ISI Israeli Instinctive Shooting Instructor certification. These are advanced techniques utilized by the Israeli IDF. I teach advanced courses to veteran officers. And as most of my personal students are off-duty LEO/military I include this type of shooting into the Mya Ryu Jitsu program.

Futile to attempt a disarm? It isn't the first on my list of things to do in a given day but if your life is on the line [or the life of a loved one] and there are no reasonable alternatives, it can be effective given proper training. Is it guarenteed? No...but not much is in this arena. At least it gives you the opportunity that might not otherwise exist. And fortunately, many have done so in the past.

:asian:

 

[Cryozombie]

But in defense of myself I would just like to say that I have had the unfortunate displeasure to look down the barrel of a handgun durring a confrontation.

 

[MartialArtist]

Well, unless it was some type of mugging, and if the offender was confused (like many "home-made" or amateur criminals are), there is little time for reaction. If a person had the intent to kill you, he'd do it with...

1) Protection - In a building, in brush, dense areas, and with range
2) Speed - If he was on the same level as you, most experts can draw faster than most people can react. Many can do an Israeli draw (draw and racking the slide) if they decide to carry in that condition faster than most people can throw a decent counter-attack or to disarm someone.

But most crimes are not done in that fashion. It is where the criminal is confused, and does not know whether to kill or to just run.