How Important is Fighting in YOUR Martial Art?
- Thread starter elder999
- Start date
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah. Pretty important.
we have guys who compete. Which i consider fighting. We have guys like myself who bounce and so have to fight people.
and we train up to 80-90% which i would also consider fighting.
pretty much if i am in real danger of being knocked out i class it as a fight.
and fighting is important because i believe you are unsafe if you engage in that sort of activity where someone is really trying to hurt you and you do not prepare properly for it.
we have guys who compete. Which i consider fighting. We have guys like myself who bounce and so have to fight people.
and we train up to 80-90% which i would also consider fighting.
pretty much if i am in real danger of being knocked out i class it as a fight.
and fighting is important because i believe you are unsafe if you engage in that sort of activity where someone is really trying to hurt you and you do not prepare properly for it.
Fighting should be important in all martial arts. Kung fu masters realised this and it was promoted in republican china by masters of the Nanking kung fu institute. And then the communists came and made modern wushu which basically all the work of the Nanking institute and set beck kung fu by a lot
I think I will take a separate post for each martial art starting with Okinawan Goju karate. Fighting is obviously a big part of our training but it is nothing like the sparring you see in other sport style karate. In fact to me sport sparring is detrimental to your training unless you are going to be involved in tournaments. The reason I say this is that in tournaments you are penalised for not attacking, yet in a fighting sense it is easier and is normally more advantageous to defend than to attack. I would much rather wait for someone to attack me than for me to attack them and of course from a legal point of view it is easier to defend a charge in court where you have been attacked rather than when witnesses or CCTV show that you were the aggressor, regardless of provocation.
As to our 'fighting'. We start from Kakie or sticky hands and build up the intensity depending on the experience of the student. That will include kicks although they are totally controlled because at that range the kicks are generally shin kicks to the knee and with power the damage could be severe. Because our training is extremely close range the punches are powered by the hips and are always a short travel. Elbows are a big part of our strikes as are knees to the legs, groin or stomach. Also at that range all the locks, holds and takedowns come into play.
Because our training is heavily based on kata we are very big on grappling. Not grappling like you see in BJJ but stand up grappling. Here our 'fighting' is not only trying to deliver strikes with the knees, elbows and fists but also focused on developing a strong centre to enable takedowns and resist being taken down. Also of course, our fighting may well include weapons such as knives and sticks.
So to summarise, fighting is absolutely critical to our training but that fighting is a different to what people expect when they think of karate and are familiar with the sport style sparring.
As to our 'fighting'. We start from Kakie or sticky hands and build up the intensity depending on the experience of the student. That will include kicks although they are totally controlled because at that range the kicks are generally shin kicks to the knee and with power the damage could be severe. Because our training is extremely close range the punches are powered by the hips and are always a short travel. Elbows are a big part of our strikes as are knees to the legs, groin or stomach. Also at that range all the locks, holds and takedowns come into play.
Because our training is heavily based on kata we are very big on grappling. Not grappling like you see in BJJ but stand up grappling. Here our 'fighting' is not only trying to deliver strikes with the knees, elbows and fists but also focused on developing a strong centre to enable takedowns and resist being taken down. Also of course, our fighting may well include weapons such as knives and sticks.
So to summarise, fighting is absolutely critical to our training but that fighting is a different to what people expect when they think of karate and are familiar with the sport style sparring.
OK. So let's look at Krav. It had a lot in common with Goju but has less complexity. It delivers more bang for your buck than most other MAs. We do have some sparring a bit like kickboxing purely to give guys a feel for hitting and getting hit, distance etc. Once again I would suggest that too much of this type of sparring is detrimental to our training because give and take monkey dance is not the way Krav is practised.
In Krav the fighting is more as a response to an attack. The training is to enter and destroy. The 360 defence in particular works on that principle so to train moving in and out like you see in sport sparring is contrary to the basic principles of Krav. Krav enters, mostly behind some sort of strike, that in itself could be a fight stopper, followed by a barrage of knees before knee to face or forearm to neck. As you might imagine you cannot spar these types of techniques in a realistic manner so a lot is simulated. The exception would be the on ground grappling where the objective is to regain your feet rather than fight for submission. Here the grappling can be more realistic.
So to summarise, certainly fighting is part of our training but again, not the type of fighting you would expect in something like MMA.
In Krav the fighting is more as a response to an attack. The training is to enter and destroy. The 360 defence in particular works on that principle so to train moving in and out like you see in sport sparring is contrary to the basic principles of Krav. Krav enters, mostly behind some sort of strike, that in itself could be a fight stopper, followed by a barrage of knees before knee to face or forearm to neck. As you might imagine you cannot spar these types of techniques in a realistic manner so a lot is simulated. The exception would be the on ground grappling where the objective is to regain your feet rather than fight for submission. Here the grappling can be more realistic.
So to summarise, certainly fighting is part of our training but again, not the type of fighting you would expect in something like MMA.
The last MA I would like to look at is Aikido. The type of sparring you see in something like MMA is totally inappropriate for Aikido. It takes many years to get to a level where I believe you could use Aikido alone to defend yourself. In my case, and I have said many times before, it took more than six years, with an extensive prior MA background, before I felt I could use Aikido in a street situation.
To have Kyu grades sparring in the conventional sense would be totally against the principles of Aikido and would not assist new Aikidoka to master the soft aspects of Aikido. That is not to say that they don't practise the atemi. Atemi has a number of uses. Apart from the obvious use of a strike, atemi is important in ensuring Nage is at the right distance to perform a technique. However the nature of Aikido is such that until you have sufficient skill to perform techniques without thought, I believe you will not be able to use Aikido effectively in a street fight.
Now, not having sparring as such does not mean that we don't practise techniques against full resistance. We do, but again, not all the time. Sometimes we will seem to be totally compliant but that is part of the training integral to the reversal of techniques.
To summarise, fighting in the conventional sense is totally against all the principles of Aikido. It is not important at all to Aikido training.
To have Kyu grades sparring in the conventional sense would be totally against the principles of Aikido and would not assist new Aikidoka to master the soft aspects of Aikido. That is not to say that they don't practise the atemi. Atemi has a number of uses. Apart from the obvious use of a strike, atemi is important in ensuring Nage is at the right distance to perform a technique. However the nature of Aikido is such that until you have sufficient skill to perform techniques without thought, I believe you will not be able to use Aikido effectively in a street fight.
Now, not having sparring as such does not mean that we don't practise techniques against full resistance. We do, but again, not all the time. Sometimes we will seem to be totally compliant but that is part of the training integral to the reversal of techniques.
To summarise, fighting in the conventional sense is totally against all the principles of Aikido. It is not important at all to Aikido training.
Shai Hulud
Purple Belt
NHB and street-style fighting are the core of the Keysi Fighting Method. Core principles and tactics/applications assume that you're going for broke and swinging for the hills.
crazydiamond
Purple Belt
Practical self defense - street fighting is why I chose my MA (JKD Concepts) and my academy to train at. Not concerned with the ring (i am too old to fight in a ring or competitions) or art aspect. My instructors have had more than their share of street fighting experiences. However for me- I hope to never be in a fight and will seek all means to avoid one. For my young daughter who is learning with me - Its a bit different - and I see much more reasons for learning "real fighting" and the chance she might have to use it - then I ever would.
Fighting - physical contact to prevent or cause injury ( my definition)
Yes the art I instruct is about fighting, and survival. Is there more to it than just getting out on the floor and punching and kicking or locking a person up. Yes, but to go into all that is involved would take me a day or so to explain and then some would not understand whitout studying with me for years
Yes the art I instruct is about fighting, and survival. Is there more to it than just getting out on the floor and punching and kicking or locking a person up. Yes, but to go into all that is involved would take me a day or so to explain and then some would not understand whitout studying with me for years
So, within your training, what type of sparring/fighting do you do? In principle KFM has many similarities with Krav.
In place of the term 'fighting' I would insert self defense. Now, self defense could include a pre-emptive strike in specific circumstances, but the goal is one of defending oneself or another from the attack of another. In this manner, our art is 100% focused upon this goal.
That may be true but that is not the question being asked. This thread has come from the other one posted by Hanzou where the definitions were so loose that it was impossible to get a straight answer.
So self defence may well be an important part of your training but the question is ... in your training what 'fighting' do you do? Do you spar in the conventional sense? Do you grapple? How do you test your techniques? Is 'fighting' part of your training and as Elder asked, what does 'fighting' mean to you in a training sense?
Ah, okay. In that regard, we use scenario based training. That is our hands-on 'fighting'. This would include grappling, ground, standing, escapes, locks, throws etc against a resisting attacker in a format that is as realistic as possible while still maintaining a margin of safety and realism.
Shai Hulud
Purple Belt
That is correct. Training methods don't differ that greatly from Krav Maga and Systema.
Sparring/fighting is done full contact (full protective gear), and sometimes light contact (minimal protective gear) depending on whether you're training for "toughness" in the case of the former, or conditioning yourself to new techniques in the latter. (in the second module of the "beginner/advance/elite" curriculum of the program, they actually start regularly pitting you against more than 1 person just to test your nerves) Isolated drills and work on the kick-pads/punching bag will never go away, but in Keysi unless you can string them all together in realistic fighting conditions and under pressure, it's all for naught.
Pekiti-Tirsia Kali. Fighting, in the sense of a duel or self-defense in an integral part of the martial art, and quite frankly GT Gaje prefers to refer to the PTK as a "fighting art" not a "martial art." Like many FMA it starts out with the assumption that a weapon is involved, be it stick, knife, or machete, rock, gun, or something, because, well, why wouldn't you assume a weapon is involved, particularly if you happen to be carrying said weapon? Most initial training sets up for a duel format where drills focus on matched weapons, both training partners have one knife, one stick, two sticks, one staff, etc, this allows the training to focus on a particular topic and development area. Training then shifts to asymmetric weapon sets; unarmed vs knife, knife vs. stick, machete vs staff, unarmed vs. staff, etc. This second portion is much more applicable to the self-defense arena than the earlier training drills involving matched weapons, but most of the skill sets used in the asymmetric portion are developed in the symmetric training sets, so it is a vital part of the training equation.
Most PTK groups use sparring as a important tool in development of their skill sets. Part of the training has a well established build of drill to technical sparring to full-contact light armor sparring, not all groups emphasize the last portion equally and not all students are ever ready or willing to go to full contact levels. My group uses sparring as both the duel and the self-defense aspects, and we are working the sparring skill sets into scenario training as well, trying to fully bridge that gap between the duel and the self-defense sides of the art.
Most PTK groups use sparring as a important tool in development of their skill sets. Part of the training has a well established build of drill to technical sparring to full-contact light armor sparring, not all groups emphasize the last portion equally and not all students are ever ready or willing to go to full contact levels. My group uses sparring as both the duel and the self-defense aspects, and we are working the sparring skill sets into scenario training as well, trying to fully bridge that gap between the duel and the self-defense sides of the art.
I find that a lot of people's definition of "fighting" is really more hardcore sparring, which, while both are important and complement each other, are very different animals as well.
It seems like people that can spar well (true, full-contact sparring) can usually fight, but people that can fight, can't necessarily spar, or fight against someone that's been trained in sparring. The reason why being that in a "true" fight, by my definition, there is no strategy, while sparring at some level is very much a game, in which you are trained to automatically respond to various different types of force coming at them.
It seems like people that can spar well (true, full-contact sparring) can usually fight, but people that can fight, can't necessarily spar, or fight against someone that's been trained in sparring. The reason why being that in a "true" fight, by my definition, there is no strategy, while sparring at some level is very much a game, in which you are trained to automatically respond to various different types of force coming at them.
donald1
Senior Master
my reason, its something i like doing
i guess fighting and self defense could fit in similar categories. if so thats the only thing that happens in the karate class i go to. so i would probably say somewhat important. fighting to me? i dont think much of it maybe the self defence aspect but not much more.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
The goal of a fight should be to get someone into your "game". Once that happens, your chances of beating them is increased exponentially. Sometimes that "game" doesn't even involve anything physical. There's a mental game as well.
But that depends on the context of the 'fight'. In the ring that is true. It is a game as you say, no different to playing chess. So that is what you train for. In the outside world you want to be out of the 'game', not in it. Hence the different emphasis on 'fighting' when we train.
The mental aspect is the same either way.
Similar threads
