How good do you have to be?

[Robbo]

First of all I know that this will be very subjective.

What I would like to know is how good do YOU think somebody has to be to be an instructor in a system?

Is it enough to to be so-so but know the mat'l inside and out and to be able to convey it in a understandible manner?

Do you have to be an effective fighter and show how things work rather than explain them effectively?

It would be great to have both sides of the coin but with all the people instructing I know that this is not the case. What would you rather have?

Do the internal testing board keep all this in check? After all anybody with a teaching certificate should be good enough to teach....right? :shrug:

In the older days of martial arts there was alot of put up or shut up mentality that left little to argue about, either you were standing or not.

But that's not really what I'm getting at. I know my personal abilities and I'd like to teach someday but how do you know when you're good enough. Personally even though I'm rated as a 2nd degree (and it wasn't easy to get it) I feel I lack the confidence in my own ability to teach my art.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[rmcrobertson]

Boy, can I sympathize with this---perhaps it's just a matter of shared 2nd degree disease.

I think I do a pretty good job of basic instruction. In fact, I've been teaching long enough that one of my students (poor guy!) has caught up with me, at least in terms of rank--and at times, I have the horrible feeling that he's a better fighter, too.

More specifically, my particular problem is that I train at Larry Tatum's in Pasadena, and I watch him teach, and damn. I mean, it helps to have the extra twenty-five years or so of experience, and the added (deserved, obviously) reputation with students--but I watch him teach, and damn.

Then too, I gotta contend with having men and women around whom I consider tougher--Clyde, Angela MacNamee, Darryl Liner, Wm. Glenn, etc.--and damn.

So I've not much help to offer, except to say that I think I know how you feel. And oh yeah--wouldn't it be worse if we did feel completely adequate to the task of teaching kenpo?

 

[Robbo]

Thanks to Robert for his reply. Looking pretty lonely there though.

 

[Nightingale]

To be an instructor, you need to:

know the system inside and out and be able to explain it
be able to explain the history of the system
be able to explain the philosophies of the system
be able to practice the system and make it work
understand the philosophies of teaching and be able to teach.

i know plenty of martial artists (some with schools) who simply cannot teach. They may have the goods, but they don't know how to pass them on.

I also know plenty who can philosophize about kenpo all day, but when it comes down to it, can't do it.

you have to be able to do it, then you have to understand it, then you have to LEARN how to teach it.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Robbo

First of all I know that this will be very subjective.

What I would like to know is how good do YOU think somebody has to be to be an instructor in a system?
Thanks,
Rob

I make sure that I can effectively demonstrate everything I teach. If I can not then I need to be able to get someone who "should" be able to do it and teach/show/get them to do it to validate my point.

If I can't either do it or show someone else how to do it, then I think I have a credibility issue as an instructor.

For example, if I knew How to do a flying scissor kick, even though I could not do one myself, I should think that I could take a flexible, athletic student and teach them to do one. If so, I would feel justified in claiming that I am a qualified teacher.

If however, I am trying to teach something and I can't do it, and no one can do it, then perhaps I am wrong. In these instances I have sought clarification from my teacher and he has always been able to resolve my dilemma. Usually I forgot something and once I was shown it again, I could do whatever it was and continue to teach it to his satisfaction.

I hope that all makes sense.
:asian:

 

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Robbo

First of all I know that this will be very subjective.

What I would like to know is how good do YOU think somebody has to be to be an instructor in a system?

Is it enough to to be so-so but know the mat'l inside and out and to be able to convey it in a understandible manner?

Do you have to be an effective fighter and show how things work rather than explain them effectively?

It would be great to have both sides of the coin but with all the people instructing I know that this is not the case. What would you rather have?

Do the internal testing board keep all this in check? After all anybody with a teaching certificate should be good enough to teach....right? :shrug:

In the older days of martial arts there was alot of put up or shut up mentality that left little to argue about, either you were standing or not.

But that's not really what I'm getting at. I know my personal abilities and I'd like to teach someday but how do you know when you're good enough. Personally even though I'm rated as a 2nd degree (and it wasn't easy to get it) I feel I lack the confidence in my own ability to teach my art.

Thanks,
Rob

Excellent question....I don't know that you ever get "good enough" to teach without some trial and error and developing you "style" of teaching. I'm fortunate to have trained under (and currently train with) instructors with a lot of experience. But that by no means prepared me to teach. I agree that people are much better at it when they are taught how to teach and have the miles to show they are well travelled.

As a journeyman my instructors now teach me in the way they would like me to convey that information to other people and the hand full of people that I instruct seem to like the way I share the information, but the test is if they can do it once you've taught it.

Nuts and bolts are everything. Good teachers seem to teach it the exact same way every time. They have their introduction to each technique and concept down.

They also seem to be masters of the clock. In my own experience I've found I normally don't have enough time to cover everything I'd like, but I'm getting better at it.

Bare minimum I think you should be able to execute the techniques effectively to show that they do work as taught without modifications.

jb:asian:

 

[Sigung86]

For truly effective teaching you need to be at least three techniques ahead of the folks you are teaching.

Dan

 

[Robbo]

To be an instructor, you need to:

know the system inside and out and be able to explain it
be able to explain the history of the system
be able to explain the philosophies of the system
be able to practice the system and make it work
understand the philosophies of teaching and be able to teach.

i know plenty of martial artists (some with schools) who simply cannot teach. They may have the goods, but they don't know how to pass them on.

I also know plenty who can philosophize about kenpo all day, but when it comes down to it, can't do it.

you have to be able to do it, then you have to understand it, then you have to LEARN how to teach it.

Thanks for the reply Nightingale, but I really wasn't looking for the textbook answer. How many people teaching really know their system inside and out? The above may apply to someone like Mr. Conaster (GD7) but to some of us lowly 1st and 2nd degrees the above is asking a little too much of us.

I guess I was looking for something a little more personal. How individuals have overcome that invisible barrier of being able to teach effectively.

I mean are you teaching? Do you have all the qualities that you mentioned?

I don't mean to be harsh but I think that if you needed all the qualities that you mentioned there would be VERY FEW instructors teaching.

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Nightingale]

I was giving you the IDEAL.

I'm not teaching martial arts at this time. I'm worrying about learning and improving myself so I can be a better instructor.

What I meant by know the system inside and out is that it isn't enough to just be able to make it work. you have to have a thorough understanding of the philosophies behind it. I trained with someone who knew a lot about punching, and knew the techniques, but didn't instruct on any more than "you kick, then punch, then heelpalm" There was no discussion about cancelling zones, or blocking vs. parrying or any of that. Because the students never knew why the techniques worked, they were unable to improvise effectively.

 

[KenpoDave]

Originally posted by Robbo

I guess I was looking for something a little more personal. How individuals have overcome that invisible barrier of being able to teach effectively.

I mean are you teaching? Do you have all the qualities that you mentioned?

I would venture the same way we overcome that invisible barrier to perfecting a new skill, practice, practice, practice.

Some, however, are natural teachers. Some will never be teachers. Most of us fall in the middle.

Personally, I try to know the curriculum inside and out. I try to know my limits within the curriculum, and always work to improve. When teaching, I pay close attention to what the student needs to get them learning what I am trying to teach. Teaching is a continual work in progress, dynamic, always changing.

I look back at the teaching notes I took 8 years ago as a guide and wonder what I was thinking. But my students learned, so although my understanding has deepened (maybe), and my delivery is more polished, I am still teaching the same 10 yellow belt techniques to everyone.

Just jump in. You'll get better. If you don't, you will know. Your instructor sure will.

:asian:
Dave

 

[Crazy Chihuahua]

I feel I lack the confidence in my own ability to teach my art.

Different people can be good teachers of different aspects of the art. I've seen some of the classes you've taught, in fact, I've been in a couple from time to time! Everyone I've ever talked to agrees that you are a phenomenal teacher when it comes to intensity and motivation. Your strength is bringing out the abilities of students by pushing them to be better and stronger than they are, or think they are. It's not that you don't know or can't teach the system, because you are a strong practioner, it's probably that you're just more comfortable with the DOING aspect of teaching, not the TRANSFER aspect. You've probably seen me teach once or twice, too and you know I've got a long way to go, but each instructor has unique skills that can benefit every student. You've been away for a while, but once you get back in the game, you and I both know you're a better instructor than a lot of guys we know.

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
To be an instructor, you need to:

know the system inside and out and be able to explain it
be able to explain the history of the system
be able to explain the philosophies of the system
be able to practice the system and make it work
understand the philosophies of teaching and be able to teach.

all great "general" requirements...however.

to teach WELL...one cannot only be paissionate about the art he or she studies, they have to have a passion for passing their knowledge. you need to take a good amount of satisfaction in seeing you students improve, seeing them mature. you need to be able to see someone do a technique or what have you somewhat poorly, and then take great pride in them when they finally get it right, while all the way never giving up and never letting them give up on their pursuit of mastery until they reach it or come extremely close to it.

it also helps to be able to spot problems students may be having...whether it may be that their hips are not aligned correctly for a certain kick or they are just having trouble "releasing the beast" inside them if you will, and then trying to motivate them to reach the potential they have inside them.

i would actually put this high on the list of these other requirements, if not at the top. the reason being is because teaching is not just something that helps others understand your system, it's something that also helps YOU to understand it better. when i started teaching, students would ask me certain questions, ones that i did not have the black and white answer to. i had to formulate my own answer the best i could. sometimes i would have it pretty much right. other times i would be close but would check with my instructor to make sure i was giving good advice. in turn, i wound up learning just as much, if not more than the student i was teaching because i HAVE that understanding already that allows me to formulate solutions in my mind, whereas a greene student may not be developed enough to understand it on their own and will have to have their hand held a bit.

i've learned just as much from my students as i have from my instructors....maybe more.

 

[Kenpomachine]

I've only given a few classes alone at this moment, most of them for kids under 10, as well as assisted with some of the lower belts. And I agree with Tarabos that you learn a lot from the students. But it's not only because of the questions they make, but because you have to be more aware of what you're doing and how you're explaining it.

On the teachers side, I think that a good teacher is he/she that makes you question what you're learning and pushes you a bit further everyday, and wants you to be better than him/her

 

[KanoLives]

Here is a good quote I think, about what consitutes a good teacher.

"A teacher is never a giver of truth-he is a guide, a pointer to the truth that each student must find for himself. A good teacher is merely a catalyst." ----Bruce Lee

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
On the teachers side, I think that a good teacher is he/she that makes you question what you're learning and pushes you a bit further everyday, and wants you to be better than him/her

i agree except i would say that the whole "i want my student to surpass my own skill" thing is a little bit off to me.

i'd rather a student be the best THEY can be...not the best I can be.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by tarabos
i agree except i would say that the whole "i want my student to surpass my own skill" thing is a little bit off to me.

i'd rather a student be the best THEY can be...not the best I can be.

Well, I didn't think of it as surpassing the teacher's skill at the time I wrote it, just as being better: skills, intensity, hard work, etc.

But yes, your definition is far better :asian:

 

[tarabos]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
Well, I didn't think of it as surpassing the teacher's skill at the time I wrote it, just as being better: skills, intensity, hard work, etc.

But yes, your definition is far better :asian:

you said it pretty well. i just used what you said and blew it up to be more than it was a bit. i've just heard the question about whether or not an instructor's greatest joy is to see his student surpass his skills posed to many instructors and i find it interesting to see what their answer is.

 

[D.Cobb]

First, you need passion.

Secondly you need to know what you are teaching.

Most importantly, this is based on what I have read on this thread, you need to stop comparing yourself to your peers and superiors. I would bet that when Mr. Tatum took his first ever class, he was as nervous as all get-out!

If you want to be as good as Mr. Tatum, then get him to show you how. I will bet, however that he won't show you unless you start developing the confidence that is needed for the times that you WILL make mistakes.

Please don't take this as someone getting in your face, it is just based on observations made from reading your posts and responses to other peoples posts.

My own opinion is that if you keep learning from Master Tatum, you too will becom known as Master!

--Dave

:asian:

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by tarabos
i've just heard the question about whether or not an instructor's greatest joy is to see his student surpass his skills posed to many instructors and i find it interesting to see what their answer is.

Mine has told in class many times that he doesn't want clones of himself but fully developed martial artists with a personality, and that he'd be more than happy if all of us surpass his skills and rank. He enjoys a lot seeing his highest belts returning from time to time to train with us, and seeing how they've evolved and grown

He also says that he'd be even more happy if we never need to use these skills

 

[Greggers69]

Now I am a new student to Kenpo. But I am in my 30's and played alot of sports and stuff. So in my opinion it's not the skill of the individuel who is teaching the art. Of course to be qualified enough to teach it. But the understanding of people and how to motivate and the ability to show them their weakness in a matter that does not deflate their self confidnece. But i knew a few people who had alot of skills in ma but had the poeple skills of a wasp. Always trying to show off thier skills and making you feel bad. To me this isn't a good teacher just a bully who gets paid to bully. ANd remember alot of good coaches in sports can't play very well either. But just you worrying about your skills in teaching is showing that you will be a good instructor and who ever your students maybe they will be lucky to have you.:asian: