How far do you take the lock in practice?

repz

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
195
Reaction score
3
Location
Brooklyn, NYC
When you are doing a technique, lets say a wrist lock, do you perform the full motion, or do you give the person time to fall so you dont damage his wrists?

I was doing techniques and I usually give the person just a little bit of pain, just enough so he knows where to react. But last night I had this huge guy who doubted the system and wanted to resist everything, since I was testing, I did all moves fast and hard on him because I wasnt about to look stupid for his enjoyment, also other people were doing their moves fast and hard since it was testing, and I know a few occasions where the move bent my wrist and shoulder a little too far. Obviously, no one was injured, but it still makes me wonder when does it go too far, and what is your own personal judgement when doing a technique.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,507
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Northern VA
You should be working with your partner, who should be telling you how far to take a lock. That's what tapping is for... As a general rule, I don't want my partners to let me do a technique; they should make me do it properly, after the first couple of times. If I'm receiving the technique, I don't generally tap till they've done the technique, and I've felt a little pain, going a shade deeper than I might like. I figure that's what my partner is going to do, too.

If you're in a testing scenario, your partner should (unless they're testing you!) be working with you to do well. You should still have to do the technique properly, and they shouldn't be coasting or diving into it -- but they shouldn't be making it harder for you than necessary, either!
 

Nishibi Ryu

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
42
Reaction score
1
Location
Australia
I think you did the right thing with the guy who resisted, I get that a lot when I teach a friends Kickboxing students. You try to show them how to do a technique and they pull away or resist because you are doing it slow so they can see how its done. Those people I say yep if you do it slow that will happen and then I will move on to another at full pace and a lot of pressure and watch the pain level increase. Then I explain why I can't show it fast to a novice by demonstrating it slow then fast on everyone there until they stop resisting.
The trick is to apply pressure to cause maximum pain but release it very quickly to avoid dislocation or breakage, practice practice practice.

During a normal session where I have my students I apply pressure slowly so uki and tori can feel how and when pressure can build up and when to stop by tapping. This is the only way to teach locks safely but you must have the trust of your class and their belief in the system otherwise tell them to not come back, you don't have to prove anything to anyone if you so choose.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,507
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Northern VA
The principle is the same, whether you're talking locks & holds or strikes. The first time or two (or more if needed) is done slowly and lightly, with little resistance on the part of the person receive the technique. As the partners become more familiar with the technique, the resistance and speed increase -- on both sides. Eventually, the receiving partner is actively & fully resisting. With strikes, that means that the force and speed. With locks or holds -- that means that the receiving partner resists more, or tries to work out of it more. Depending on the technique, it may mean that the receiving partner steps up the intensity of the original attack, too.

What do I mean by "receiving partner"? In any partner exercise, one partner is doing the technique that's being practiced, and the other guy is getting it done to him. If you're practicing trapping a punch to the face, applying a wrist lock, and taking the puncher down, for example... the puncher is receiving the technique. (It'd be the same if you were defending with a block and counter strike.)

Being a good training partner is almost a separate art, and a good instructor actually ends up spending a surprising amount of time teaching it -- though if you do it right, senior students teach juniors over time.
 

72ronin

Purple Belt
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Messages
315
Reaction score
9
Location
Australia
Previous posts have answered your question well, so i'd just like to add that we "tap", sounds like he should of been taken through it slowly.

Once we had a guy resist even having his hand manipulated at all, he would open his hand and flex, something like the Aikido "live hand". So our instructor stepped in, went to apply wristlock, he again flexed, so Sensei just manouvered to elbow lock, got him moving and then reversed again to origional tech, he then understood the intention of "practice". It was explained we are here to learn how it works - and resisting to prove something was futile - proves nothing and helps no one.

Generally, there must be a system of "tapping" in place and understood by all. Applying a throw from wristlock should be reserved for those that understand these basic principals..
 
OP
R

repz

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
195
Reaction score
3
Location
Brooklyn, NYC
Majority of the techniques are takedowns. Like wrist lock takedowns, or arm locks and drags, they usually dont give you time to tap until you fall. They werent performed as submissions, which meant I had to literally go full range to take him down. Also, the guy was like twice my size. So it just hit me, how far do you take the motion to take them down, I have been injury prone lately, and I wouldnt want to head down that road nor put someone down that road either considering that my focus is more on another style (I used to train in jujitsu before and I sent a cousin of mines to the hospital with a compound fracture from a takedown, it still bothers me and leaves me squeemish when I perform techniques).

Thanks for the replies.
 

lklawson

Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 3, 2005
Messages
5,036
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Huber Heights, OH
But last night I had this huge guy who doubted the system and wanted to resist everything, since I was testing,
Why the blazes would you be working with an ego-goon for your TEST?!?! When testing, work with a known and friendly partner who isn't going to "give you the technique" but isn't out to bork you for his own ego either.

Unless part of your testing involves "show this stuff works on ego-goons too" then working with one for your test is just plain bad. And if your test requires you to "prove it works on the doubting" then I'd consider a different system. There are other venues to "prove out" your art. During a test shouldn't be one of them, imo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
430
Location
Cromwell,CT
When you are doing a technique, lets say a wrist lock, do you perform the full motion, or do you give the person time to fall so you dont damage his wrists?

I was doing techniques and I usually give the person just a little bit of pain, just enough so he knows where to react. But last night I had this huge guy who doubted the system and wanted to resist everything, since I was testing, I did all moves fast and hard on him because I wasnt about to look stupid for his enjoyment, also other people were doing their moves fast and hard since it was testing, and I know a few occasions where the move bent my wrist and shoulder a little too far. Obviously, no one was injured, but it still makes me wonder when does it go too far, and what is your own personal judgement when doing a technique.

I injured my wrist many years ago, when I first started training, by some blue or green belt, who was teaching the class. I chalk it up to a) someone who wasn't qualified to teach, b) someone with an ego, and c) someone with no control. Basically, we were doing wrist locks, he cranked my wrist back, I heard a pop and felt some pain. Seemed to have healed over time, but since then, my right wrist is not so flexible and tolorant to pain, compared to my left.

Now, there are times, when I'm working with people, and they just aren't buying that the tech. is working, so of course, it may be necessary to 'turn it up' a bit. BUT, that doesn't mean that ya gotta go and break something. One of the reasons when I do locks, I look for other openings prior to the lock, is for just this reason. The guy knows what you're going to do, so of course he's going to resist. But, what he not expecting, is a little kick to the shin, a hit to the face, the groin, etc. before the lock comes on. Funny how with just a slight distraction, the locks work.

Everyone is different though. Therefore, whenever I teach a lock, I always stress the importance of proper technique. If thats not there, then of course the lock wont work. I also stress the importance of gonig slow at first, until both parties understand each others pain limit. Some people seem to have rubber hands, joints, fingers, etc., so they can take more, but that doesnt mean I should crank it on fast.
 

Nolerama

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 5, 2008
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
71
Location
St. Louis, MO
Communication. No one likes training hard with someone they don't know (at first, anyway). Make sure you voice your desire for contact level.

Use progressive resistance, and let your partner know your intentions on contact level/resistance and have him/her match you instead of upping the ante.

No ego. Just because the guy is a doubter, don't "show him that it works." Of course it works! If the guy is going too far with his contact, let him know. The last thing you want is to let your ego get in the way right before you test/compete because you didn't have the responsibility to communicate with your newbie... and you get injured.
 

teekin

3rd Black Belt
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
905
Reaction score
51
Location
Winterpeg
Communication. No one likes training hard with someone they don't know (at first, anyway).
Make sure you voice your desire for contact level.

Use progressive resistance, and let your partner know your intentions on contact level/resistance and have him/her match you instead of upping the ante.

No ego. Just because the guy is a doubter, don't "show him that it works." Of course it works! If the guy is going too far with his contact, let him know. The last thing you want is to let your ego get in the way right before you test/compete because you didn't have the responsibility to communicate with your newbie... and you get injured.


Preach on Brother!!!!!!!!
Thanks for saying that. I'm still crunching my neck from the last Tweeker who improved a nasty neckcrank during an armbar drill. I like to stick with the people I know.

Lori
 

zDom

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Messages
3,081
Reaction score
110
I would advise against quick, jerky motions when locking a partner's wrist.

A quick, jerky motion can cause damage to the joint before a partner has a chance to fall and/or tap out of the lock.

If you are increasing pressure on the lock at a reasonable speed, and doing the lock correctly, they WILL tap out, fall or cry out in pain.

I've found I can "make a believer" out of anyone without a quick, jerky motion. Besides, it is much more fun to cause excruciating pain over a series of 10 or 20 repetitions than to cause injury.

And I feel it is "bad form" (as Hook would say) to cause injury in a training situation: It demonstrates a lack of control, a lack of skill. Making them THINK their joint is about to dislocate or break while causing extreme pain? Priceless.


As a receiver, I allow more speed from the person doing the lock on me if they are experienced and skillful i.e., students with some rank. After years of doing these techniques, you get a feel for where it is going to tighten up and "lock".

If a low ranking student tries to apply a lock too fast I will immediately tap out and then ask them to take things slow so I have time to tap out of the technique. I explain to them I will allow them to take the lock much further if they are moving at an acceptable speed.
 

Brian King

Master of Arts
Supporting Member
MT Mentor
Joined
Mar 17, 2003
Messages
1,622
Reaction score
504
Location
Bellevue, Washington USA
Repz wrote:
(I used to train in jujitsu before and I sent a cousin of mines to the hospital with a compound fracture from a takedown, it still bothers me and leaves me squeemish when I perform techniques).

Are you your cousin and your instructor working on this issue? If so what are you'all doing?

Regarding ego goons, folks twice your size, folks that dont move right and all others that make you think, make you adjust, make you test your stuff, cherish each and every moment you train with them. The same that you cherish those that you consider good partners. All have something to teach and show us if we can get our own ego out of the way.

Regards
Brian King
 

yorkshirelad

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jan 9, 2009
Messages
1,435
Reaction score
50
Location
Huntington Beach
When you are doing a technique, lets say a wrist lock, do you perform the full motion, or do you give the person time to fall so you dont damage his wrists?

I was doing techniques and I usually give the person just a little bit of pain, just enough so he knows where to react. But last night I had this huge guy who doubted the system and wanted to resist everything, since I was testing, I did all moves fast and hard on him because I wasnt about to look stupid for his enjoyment, also other people were doing their moves fast and hard since it was testing, and I know a few occasions where the move bent my wrist and shoulder a little too far. Obviously, no one was injured, but it still makes me wonder when does it go too far, and what is your own personal judgement when doing a technique.

From now on you should tear off your opponant's arm and hit them on the head with the soggy bit.
 

Bruno@MT

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 24, 2009
Messages
3,399
Reaction score
74
I don't like to practice locks with people I don't know, because I don't know what to expect. Personally, I think that if a lock is executed properly and in a continuous 'flow' there is no need to use force to make a point. A good uke does not have to be compliant but neither should he fight the lock to make a point.

I also think that an uke should be given enough time to tap out, and that the lock should be intensified gradually rather than being thrown full force.

Also, if you are practicing, it should imo be done slowly and correctly many times over before picking up the pace. First the form has to be correct, then the speed. Going fast and hard too soon will lead to sloppy execution and injury.
 

derobec

Orange Belt
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
60
Reaction score
2
(1).last night I had this huge guy who doubted the system and wanted to resist everything, since I was testing, I did all moves fast and hard on him because I wasnt about to look stupid for his enjoyment
(2).also other people were doing their moves fast and hard since it was testing, and I know a few occasions where the move bent my wrist and shoulder a little too far. ,

(1).Seems reasonable. Did he himself voice a request that you moderate your technique? If not then I suggest he received what he 'expected' to receive.

(2).This of course is where you (read: any of us) needed to voice that same request for moderation.

OK, there's a place for pressure testing in the arts simply to stop the complacency of those people who think that attending a lesson once or twice a week is true preparation for self defence against some monster that has no regard for human life BUT at the end of the day, self defence is also about getting through a lesson without picking up unnecessary injuries which may then not only impede our ability to earn a living but even stop us from having a chance of defending ourselves against the aforesaid monster.

All the Best,
William
 

tempus

Green Belt
Joined
Nov 18, 2005
Messages
128
Reaction score
1
Usually there is some sort of energy being done that allows the lock to be put in place easily. When we train the technique that person is suppose to simulate that and work with you. I take a lock to the point someone taps or says something if there hands are not avaialble. There are some students that are so flexible that by the time they tap, the joint would explode, but from training with them I know this.

If I know what technique and lock you will do it makes it easier for me to pull out of it or resist. I have seen big guys lock up and have seen higher belts as they are talking about smack the guy on the leg with their foot, which destracted the big guy long enough for the the technique to be applied and drop the person to a knee.

-Gary
 

Gaius Julius Caesar

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 25, 2009
Messages
552
Reaction score
12
Location
Woodbridge, Va
We use the 1 Tap, 2 Tap and Buddy Rich Tap.


When working a technique to the point of pain complience or on the edge of destruction, like a Kote Giash Wrist lock, you apply it and when Uke feels pain he taps 1 time, that means " You got me, you can work it but be carefull. Then he taps 2 times , this means " You have it dobnt take it any further." and then if he starts rapidly tapping, that is the Buddy Rich Tap and it means "Let go of me now!"

We alos have " ABORT" where if you feel as Uke something is going wrong durring the technique, you scream "ABORT!" and Nage toatally stops everything ans lets go of you.

When your doing techniques at speed, you keep aware of what is going on with Uke and listen, You do the move at the perscribed speed, power and emotional content yet are ready to back off. Uke also has to stay on his toes and stay ahead of the lock if it flows into a throw.
 

Danzan

White Belt
Joined
Apr 21, 2010
Messages
4
Reaction score
0
Depending on the type of test? it may be in your best interest to use an UKE that you have worked with and will be comfortable with. Your examination should be performed with someone that at the least can check their ego at the door.
This should also be checked by the person doing the testing, and this kind of behavior should be stopped and corrected the moment it appears.
Best of Luck.
Danzan
 
OP
R

repz

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
Messages
195
Reaction score
3
Location
Brooklyn, NYC
Depending on the type of test? it may be in your best interest to use an UKE that you have worked with and will be comfortable with. Your examination should be performed with someone that at the least can check their ego at the door.
This should also be checked by the person doing the testing, and this kind of behavior should be stopped and corrected the moment it appears.
Best of Luck.
Danzan

You train in Danzan ryu jujitsu?

Once I start working, I want to supplement my kyokushin training with Danzan ryu jujitsu. I been looking for something that teaches both jujitsu and judo. Do you guys do a lot of live randori?
 

Latest Discussions

Top