Honor the flag

[oftheherd1]

Not trying to pick a fight. I'm injecting a different perspective however. I am socially astute enough to understand that these arguments are not popular. If these arguments are accepted, something that is really emotionally important for a group of humans does not exist in the way that they believed. The pieces of wood, the pieces of cloth and the gesturing simply become what they really are and lose their magic.

I guess what caught my attention was your words "other religions." I don't consider respect for the flag as a religion. I don't think many people would. I do have a religion that I practice, but respect for my country's flag is not a religion. If you think respect for our flag is a religion, I guess that is something you have to live with.

 

[Steve]

Ultimately, it's just a peice of cloth with some symbols on it. Like any other religious symbol, it's power lies in the irrational beleif that it means anything at all.

Like any symbol, the meaning is a subjective representation of other things. A symbol is a form of shorthand. You can't really make a personal evaluation of a symbol unless you're educated about its meaning. And even then, it's not the symbol you're evaluating; rather, it's the things being represented that you're judging.

The American flag embodies many ideas and philosophies that many Americans believe to be valuable. If you don't value the ideas and philosophies, it stands to reason that you would see little value in the symbol, itself.

That said, you don't have to have respect a symbol personally in order to demonstrate respect for people. What I mean is, I'm not a christian, and so the cross holds no particular value to me. however, I understand in a general sense what it means to Christians, and so I would not go out of my way to disrespect their symbol. Similarly, the star of David or whatever else.

 

[Steve]

Freedom is more than a flag. Liberty is something rationally exists. Freedom describes a state of behavior where humans can operate free free from coercion. The flag is a symbol used by a group of humans to represent a belief that they have the right to initiate force within a given geographic area. This belief runs counter to what liberty actually is. So, even the irrational belief that the symbol means something more than something a group of humans wave around is contradictory.

Imagine this all from an alien perspective. ET would look at this simian organism and be very confused by what is happening. Some dude takes down a piece of cloth and runs it back up. Now the humans are making noises with their mouths and gesturing. Now some human with a blue costume arrives on the scene and the other humans defer to that one. More gesturing. The blue costumed human may perform several actions in this hypothetical scenario. He could walk away. He might take out a piece of paper and write on it and hand it to another agitated human. He might draw a projectile launcher and capture the other human.

It's all madness.

You presume that the concept of a symbol would be foreign to ET. Unless you're in some loop I'm not aware of, I don't think that premise is a given. It seems reasonable to me to believe that a sentient being, even one foreign to the Earth, would understand the concept of a symbol. It is, after all, the concept of symbols that allows for a written language or even speech. 'Dog' is not a dog. It is a word that we who speak English understand to represent a furry creature prone to drool and bark.

 

[crushing]

I guess what caught my attention was your words "other religions." I don't consider respect for the flag as a religion. I don't think many people would. I do have a religion that I practice, but respect for my country's flag is not a religion. If you think respect for our flag is a religion, I guess that is something you have to live with.

I'm not quite sure where Makalakumu was going with the comparison to religion, but may have been along the lines of the tribalism that is inherit in both nationalism and religion. People don't choose their parents and thus, for the most part, don't choose their religion or to which nation they swear their allegiance.

 

[Steve]

I'm not quite sure where Makalakumu was going with the comparison to religion, but may have been along the lines of the tribalism that is inherit in both nationalism and religion. People don't choose their parents and thus, for the most part, don't choose their religion or to which nation they swear their allegiance.

All true, but people are social organisms. Take away all of the trappings of civilization and we are, for our own protection, pack animals. Tribes, packs, nations, communities, groups, churches, clubs... we're much more effective when we pool our resources, and we can get a lot more done when we work together. The problem isn't that we are prone to gather and associate with each other in groups or tribes. It's when the goals of the group are perverted that things go awry.

 

[Sukerkin]

We are, as far as current research reveals, evolutionarily programmed to cooperate as that is the best survival strategy in the long term {http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23529849}. But that leaves us vulnerable to leadership that uses our drive to cooperate as a tool for it's own devices.

 

[ballen0351]

Truth. Lots of humans died for other irrational symbols as well. The cross, the sickle and hammer, various stars, etc. see the pattern?

As someone that has lost friends to that "irrational" symbol I'll bow out of this conversation before I get banned with the response I'd like to give you

 

[granfire]

As someone that has lost friends to that "irrational" symbol I'll bow out of this conversation before I get banned with the response I'd like to give you

I have no earthly idea who wrote it, when, why. I think it was in German, but once I read a - well, not even a short story - more of an allegory...

Two pieces of cloth, cut from the same bale, one is dyed and prettied up, one becomes a humble sheet....
In honor of the prettied up one - a flag - people die....while the humble sheet comforts and binds the wounded and sick....

But then again, I grew up in a country where flying the flag and being patriotic was somewhat suspect....

 

[K-man]

You presume that the concept of a symbol would be foreign to ET. Unless you're in some loop I'm not aware of, I don't think that premise is a given. It seems reasonable to me to believe that a sentient being, even one foreign to the Earth, would understand the concept of a symbol. It is, after all, the concept of symbols that allows for a written language or even speech. 'Dog' is not a dog. It is a word that we who speak English understand to represent a furry creature prone to drool and bark.

Unless you are using 'dog' in the sense of slang where it takes on a new meaning. :asian:

 

[K-man]

As someone that has lost friends to that "irrational" symbol I'll bow out of this conversation before I get banned with the response I'd like to give you

With no disrespect, I would hope that no one would give their life in support of an 'irrational symbol' but if that were the situation it was because of a 'rational' cause. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

With no disrespect, I would hope that no one would give their life in support of an 'irrational symbol' but if that were the situation it was because of a 'rational' cause. :asian:

The irrational part are his words not mine. And I dare anyone to go up to me or my friends and say my flag was irrational I can tell you it would end badly.

 

[Sukerkin]

From Sharpe's Rifles:

Major Hogan: Not now, Richard. Our mission is Torre Castro. Spain is a sleeping tiger! If the people of Torre Castro rise up, even for an hour, the shock will shake the whole of Spain. Carry on, sir.
Richard Sharpe: Rise up? Do you really believe men will fight and die for a rag on a pole?
Major Hogan: You do, Richard, you do.

A great quote from a super series of military fiction but I have always thought that Major Hogan was wrong. Men don't fight for a rag on a pole, they fight for each other. Some notion of "defence of the realm" (nation) might have brought them to the point where they are exchanging fire with men who are no enemies of their own making but it is (platonic) love of their 'trench-mates' that keeps them there.

 

[Tgace]

http://history1800s.about.com/od/civilwar/f/Civil-War-Battle-Flags.htm

 

[granfire]

http://history1800s.about.com/od/civilwar/f/Civil-War-Battle-Flags.htm

the flag thing is much older though: Insignia trahere is Latin for attack - it means literally 'carrying the insignia (toward the enemy)'

But the current love for the flag is probably a result of the Reagan years...

 

[ballen0351]

the flag thing is much older though: Insignia trahere is Latin for attack - it means literally 'carrying the insignia (toward the enemy)'

But the current love for the flag is probably a result of the Reagan years...

Really? My grandfather loved the flag long before Reagan. He was in WW2 and when he got back from the war he would put up and take down his flag everyday until he just physically couldn't anymore. He said it was a way to honor his friends that didn't come home and couldnt raise the flag.

 

[oftheherd1]

With no disrespect, I would hope that no one would give their life in support of an 'irrational symbol' but if that were the situation it was because of a 'rational' cause. :asian:

It always amazes me how other nationalities don't seem to hold their country's flag in the same honor we do. No doubt others wonder about us. But I think we accept it as a symbol of not only our nation in general, but its ideals, and the struggles we have gone though to make our nation the good nation we think it is. And one can carry a flag and show honor to it, where it would be difficult to carry ones entire geographical nation around. ;-)

From Sharpe's Rifles:

Major Hogan: Not now, Richard. Our mission is Torre Castro. Spain is a sleeping tiger! If the people of Torre Castro rise up, even for an hour, the shock will shake the whole of Spain. Carry on, sir.
Richard Sharpe: Rise up? Do you really believe men will fight and die for a rag on a pole?
Major Hogan: You do, Richard, you do.

A great quote from a super series of military fiction but I have always thought that Major Hogan was wrong. Men don't fight for a rag on a pole, they fight for each other. Some notion of "defence of the realm" (nation) might have brought them to the point where they are exchanging fire with men who are no enemies of their own making but it is (platonic) love of their 'trench-mates' that keeps them there.

"Defense of the realm" has a lot to do with it to get men into the military, and keep them there. Certainly men fight for their comrades in battle. They are trained to take care of each other as much as the mission allows. They do tend to form bonds most who haven't been in battle have trouble understanding.

The question would be how much of each; what is the percentage. I personally really wouldn't hazzard a guess on that.

 

[crushing]

The irrational part are his words not mine. And I dare anyone to go up to me or my friends and say my flag was irrational I can tell you it would end badly.

How so? Would you resort to physical violence against someone that expressed an opinion about the flag contrary to your own?

Personally, I put the freedoms that our flag should represent above the flag symbol itself. Resorting to violence, or stealing and vandalism such as the person in the OP video runs contrary to the freedoms that I think our flag stands for. I wouldn't figuratively burn the US Constitution to prevent someone from expressing their opinions about what the flag has come to mean to them, no matter how much I may not like how they are expressing those opinions.

 

[ballen0351]

How so? Would you resort to physical violence against someone that expressed an opinion about the flag contrary to your own?

Personally, I put the freedoms that our flag should represent above the flag symbol itself. Resorting to violence, or stealing and vandalism such as the person in the OP video runs contrary to the freedoms that I think our flag stands for. I wouldn't figuratively burn the US Constitution to prevent someone from expressing their opinions about what the flag has come to mean to them, no matter how much I may not like how they are expressing those opinions.

Would I personally no not anymore at least i dont think i would but I know people that would in a heartbeat. Some of my old Marine Buddies would not hesitate to go to blows over the flag. In my youth I would have I'm too old and put my familys needs ahead of my country now but there was a time I'd throw down.

As a man there are times you need to draw your line in the sand and stand for something. For some that line is the flag and what it represents. When you see a few of your brothers coffins draped in the flag your line is drawn there

 

[granfire]

Really? My grandfather loved the flag long before Reagan. He was in WW2 and when he got back from the war he would put up and take down his flag everyday until he just physically couldn't anymore. He said it was a way to honor his friends that didn't come home and couldnt raise the flag.

you know the band wagon jumpers...to every real fan, there are ten who only know the team when it's on top....
(The WWII generation is/was made from different cloth....No doubt your grandfather had but the deepest love for the flag.)

 

[Sukerkin]

I understand your heart on this, Ballen and I do not mean to anger you my friend when I, very gently, ask whether that reaction of violence to someone not showing due respect to a symbol you hold dear actually does due honour to what that symbol if supposed to stand for?

I empathise with what you are saying about what it means to you personal, for good reasons that no one will dispute with you but isn't one of the things the flag of the USA supposed to stand for the Constitution of your country? A Constitution written as well as the Founders could make it to ensure personal freedom to do pretty much what you will as long as it breaks no ones leg or picks no ones pocket?