Home schooled kids removed from parents overseas...

[decepticon]

You know, like trying to pass of the intelligent design and creationism as science.

We don't try to pass intelligent design and creationism off as science. We teach them as truth!

We teach science as fact or as theory, depending on whether it has been proven through replicable studies or not. The reality is that scientific "truth" does change over time - think of the fate of the poor little "planet", Pluto.

Before settling down to parenting, I was a marine biologist and found my Christian beliefs to be completely compatible with my scientific work, so long as I didn't confuse physical laws and scientific theories.

Regarding taking offense, I was actually referring to a previous post that stereotyped Christian homeschoolers as being of a certain "ilk", which didn't fit my family nor most of the other homeschool or Christian families I know. I commented to clarify that we are not all the same. It is likely that I probably wouldn't see eye to eye religiously with the German family in question. However, I do resent being lumped together with them and others into a category of 6+ kids, homophobic, illiterates due only to my religion and educational choice.

Although I have visited various parts of Europe, I have not had the opportunity to live there and have no first hand knowledge of the German educational system. How does the German government handle the situation with other groups with intense beliefs that are contrary to government policies? Neo-nazis, polygamists, various unusual cultic groups? Do they remove their children even though the children attend the public school system or an approved private school?

I definitely think it is mistaken to assume that parents cannot have immense sway over their children's beliefs even if they attend public schooling. Just as I think it is not automatic that children will adopt the views of their parents - if so, rebellion against elders would be nonexistant! (And the poor poster with chopsticks sticking out of his kid's trombone could have avoided that fiasco!)

Truly, I think the issue is one of dealing with parents teaching their children beliefs that a government doesn't like. There has been no mention of the kids' academic issues. This is not about academic education, it is about indoctrination. And if that is truly the case, then homeschooling has little to do with the situation. A child in a private, religious school (or even one based on a philosophy, extremely liberal for example) could easily absorb a particular way of thinking. Again, not just a homeschool thing.

Taking the example of Catholicism, as previously mentioned... If children are born into a Catholic family, have Catholic relatives, live in a predominantly Catholic area, attend a government-permitted parochial school (or maybe even live at a parochial boarding school), go to Catholic church, belong to Catholic kids' clubs, and socialize at Catholic events, how are they being any less indoctrinated than a fundamentalist protestant child who is being homeschooled? Is the first child any less isolated or indoctrinated than the second? So why is it okay to remove the second child from his home but the first can be left alone?

There is definitely more here than meets the eye. And stereotyping any related group or taking offense that someone has taken offense merely muddies the waters.

 

[Tez3]

We don't try to pass intelligent design and creationism off as science. We teach them as truth!

We teach science as fact or as theory, depending on whether it has been proven through replicable studies or not. The reality is that scientific "truth" does change over time - think of the fate of the poor little "planet", Pluto.

Before settling down to parenting, I was a marine biologist and found my Christian beliefs to be completely compatible with my scientific work, so long as I didn't confuse physical laws and scientific theories.

Regarding taking offense, I was actually referring to a previous post that stereotyped Christian homeschoolers as being of a certain "ilk", which didn't fit my family nor most of the other homeschool or Christian families I know. I commented to clarify that we are not all the same. It is likely that I probably wouldn't see eye to eye religiously with the German family in question. However, I do resent being lumped together with them and others into a category of 6+ kids, homophobic, illiterates due only to my religion and educational choice.

Although I have visited various parts of Europe, I have not had the opportunity to live there and have no first hand knowledge of the German educational system. How does the German government handle the situation with other groups with intense beliefs that are contrary to government policies? Neo-nazis, polygamists, various unusual cultic groups? Do they remove their children even though the children attend the public school system or an approved private school?

I definitely think it is mistaken to assume that parents cannot have immense sway over their children's beliefs even if they attend public schooling. Just as I think it is not automatic that children will adopt the views of their parents - if so, rebellion against elders would be nonexistant! (And the poor poster with chopsticks sticking out of his kid's trombone could have avoided that fiasco!)

Truly, I think the issue is one of dealing with parents teaching their children beliefs that a government doesn't like. There has been no mention of the kids' academic issues. This is not about academic education, it is about indoctrination. And if that is truly the case, then homeschooling has little to do with the situation. A child in a private, religious school (or even one based on a philosophy, extremely liberal for example) could easily absorb a particular way of thinking. Again, not just a homeschool thing.

Taking the example of Catholicism, as previously mentioned... If children are born into a Catholic family, have Catholic relatives, live in a predominantly Catholic area, attend a government-permitted parochial school (or maybe even live at a parochial boarding school), go to Catholic church, belong to Catholic kids' clubs, and socialize at Catholic events, how are they being any less indoctrinated than a fundamentalist protestant child who is being homeschooled? Is the first child any less isolated or indoctrinated than the second? So why is it okay to remove the second child from his home but the first can be left alone?

There is definitely more here than meets the eye. And stereotyping any related group or taking offense that someone has taken offense merely muddies the waters.

I think you are missing the point. It's not about indoctrination, it's about forcing your views on others.
I didn't lump Christians into one group, I specified exactly who I was talking about.

The fundamentalists can teach their children whatever they want, however what they cannot do is then go out into the streets and force that view on others. The Roman Catholic families may or may not be indoctrinating their children but those Catholic children don't have to and shouldn't have to be told by others that they will go to hell because they don't believe what the fundamentalists do. Now the fundamentalists may believe we are going to hell, up to them but they don't have the right to push that onto others.. Don't tell Catholics their Pope is the Anti Christ, don't tell schools that have children reading Harry Potter are going to hell, or the child that dresses as a witch for Karnival is going to hell. Tolerance and each to their own is what the German authorities want, these families disagree, they want certain things taught and not others...to everyone, it doesn't happen, isn't going to happen, so they take their children out of school, that's illegal in Germany, so they are breaking the law.

The reason they are taking their children out of school is that they want the schools to teach specifically what they believe because they think they are the only ones who are right. Home schooling isn't the issue here, it's almost incidental. It's a push by fundamentalists to have the schools curriculum changed to suit them, it's never going to happen, it remains 'open' so the parents 'rebel', claim it's them being persecuted for their beliefs and make a big issue about it. So far it seems to be working and there's sympathy for them while the big bad German authorites are accused of picking on these families because of their beliefs, when what the Germans want is the teaching of tolerence and diversity.
These parents should set up their own school where they can teach what they wish just not to everyone.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_school


"The right to create private schools in in Germany is in Article 7, Paragraph 4 of the Grundgesetz and cannot be suspended even in a state of emergency. It is also not possible to abolish these rights. This unusual protection of private schools was implemented to protect these schools from a second Gleichschaltung or similar event in the future. Still, they are less common than in many other countries.
There are two types of private schools in Germany, Ersatzschulen (literally: substitute schools) and Ergänzungsschulen (literally: auxiliary schools). There are also private Hochschulen (private colleges and universities) in Germany, but similar to the UK, the term private school is almost never used of universities or other tertiary institutions.
Ersatzschulen are ordinary primary or secondary schools, which are run by private individuals, private organizations or religious groups. These schools offer the same types of diplomas as public schools. Ersatzschulen lack the freedom to operate completely outside of government regulation. Teachers at Ersatzschulen must have at least the same education and at least the same wages as teachers at public schools, an Ersatzschule must have at least the same academic standards as a public school and Article 7, Paragraph 4 of the Grundgesetz, also forbids segregation of pupils according to the means of their parents (the so called Sonderungsverbot). Therefore, most Ersatzschulen have very low tuition fees and/or offer scholarships, compared to most other Western European countries. However, it is not possible to finance these schools with such low tuition fees, which is why all German Ersatzschulen are additionally financed with public funds. The percentages of public money could reach 100% of the personnel expenditures. Nevertheless, Private Schools became insolvent in the past in Germany.
Ergänzungsschulen are secondary or post-secondary (non-tertiary) schools, which are run by private individuals, private organizations or rarely, religious groups and offer a type of education which is not available at public schools. Most of these schools are vocational schools. However, these vocational schools are not part of the German dual education system. Ergänzungsschulen have the freedom to operate outside of government regulation and are funded in whole by charging their students tuition fees"

 

[ballen0351]

I think you are missing the point. It's not about indoctrination, it's about forcing your views on others.

Thats exactly what public schools do. When you home school a kid who are you forcing your views on other then your own kids?

I didn't lump Christians into one group, I specified exactly who I was talking about.

When you lumped all homeschoolers as crazys then you also lumped all christians that home school into the same catagory. There are plenty of homeschooled children that are not parents of hateful nut jobs

The fundamentalists can teach their children whatever they want, however what they cannot do is then go out into the streets and force that view on others.

Who are they forcing there views on? By simply speaking thier minds. You choose to listen and agree or ignore and walk on.

The Roman Catholic families may or may not be indoctrinating their children but those Catholic children don't have to and shouldn't have to be told by others that they will go to hell because they don't believe what the fundamentalists do. Now the fundamentalists may believe we are going to hell, up to them but they don't have the right to push that onto others.. Don't tell Catholics their Pope is the Anti Christ, don't tell schools that have children reading Harry Potter are going to hell, or the child that dresses as a witch for Karnival is going to hell.

Its not just fundamentalists christians that believe the above many other religions do as well.

Tolerance and each to their own is what the German authorities want, these families disagree, they want certain things taught and not others...to everyone, it doesn't happen, isn't going to happen, so they take their children out of school, that's illegal in Germany, so they are breaking the law.

You cant legislate tolerance if it were that easy we would never have another war or fight again. The point was not that its illegal its why does the Govt fell it has the right to tell parents what to teach thier kids.

The reason they are taking their children out of school is that they want the schools to teach specifically what they believe because they think they are the only ones who are right.

And you dont teach your kids your beliefs and morals?

Home schooling isn't the issue here, it's almost incidental. It's a push by fundamentalists to have the schools curriculum changed to suit them, it's never going to happen, it remains 'open' so the parents 'rebel', claim it's them being persecuted for their beliefs and make a big issue about it.

In a way they are being punished for their beliefs and are not allowed to teach their children what they believe to be true.

So far it seems to be working and there's sympathy for them while the big bad German authorites are accused of picking on these families because of their beliefs, when what the Germans want is the teaching of tolerence and diversity.
These parents should set up their own school where they can teach what they wish just not to everyone.

They just want to teach their own kids I have not seen anything that say they want to teach everyone.

 

[Tez3]

Another article showing how political this is rather than just over 'home schooling'
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,674492,00.html


As is pointed out while children have to attend school there's a lot of choice about what school they can go to, all it would take actually is one or two families especially as they have a few children, to set up a school and have it registered. How easy is that? they can be schooled at home but in a registered school with the educational standards set as they should be by the education authorities, then the lessons these parents want to teach their children can be taught and they can be away from the rest of 'nasty' humanity. However they chose to go down the road of appearing as martyrs.

It wasn't this German families idea to seek political asylum in America it was an American working with a group with a big agenda.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/16/texas-schools-rewrites-us-history

this is what the German fundamentalists have as their gaol, that they can do what has happened in this school in Texas. Home schooling is the excuse they use when what they want is the German schools to change to their way of thinking.

 

[ballen0351]

Well, non-Americans are very much affected by the outcome of the US elections. I know it is hard to comprehend, but there it is.

Oh ok so its ok to comment on American but its not a two way street got it I didnt know the rules before.

As to religion, the state does not give a crap about what religion somebody is. They do however demand that the education is not affected by it.

Thats why most places have a set of things your required to teach

You know, like trying to pass of the intelligent design and creationism as science.
Or lack of tolerance towards other people of other denomination, let alone faith.

Yeah cause we all started as a blob of goo and eventually the little goo blobs smashed into eachother and everthing just randomly over time formed a Human is so much more believeable. Psss and dont ask where the goo came from cause we havent figured that out yet

In Germany there used to be religion class: Protestant and catholic. Later on, in the 80s ethics was added as choice. You choose. Children of other faiths were exempt from having to attend religion, they usually took ethics. And no, don't ask, I have no idea what either is supposed to accomplish. Ethics was some anthroposophical junk, I am assuming because the teacher was a jerk...

But generally, there is no pressure one way or another about religion. But you can't make that the sole base of education.

Nobody is saying it should be the sole basis as I see it people only want the right to teach their own kids.

 

[Tez3]

Thats exactly what public schools do. When you home school a kid who are you forcing your views on other then your own kids?

When you go out and picket other faith's schools, when you shove leaflets into their hands, when you blockade a school and sing hymns at the children which is what this group of people does.


When you lumped all homeschoolers as crazys then you also lumped all christians that home school into the same catagory. There are plenty of homeschooled children that are not parents of hateful nut jobs

No I didn't lump them together, you may read it that way but I didn't in fact do so.

Who are they forcing there views on? By simply speaking thier minds. You choose to listen and agree or ignore and walk on.
Its not just fundamentalists christians that believe the above many other religions do as well.

This group however as I said actually blockade other schools, and places of worship. No you can't just ignore them and walk on when they are chasing you up the road.

You cant legislate tolerance if it were that easy we would never have another war or fight again. The point was not that its illegal its why does the Govt fell it has the right to tell parents what to teach thier kids.

No, the fundamentalist parents want to tell the schools what to teach, the German schools like our own don't teach anyone's is right they just teach the knowledge of others religions, things like 'the Pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church etc etc,' not faith just facts. they want Creationism to be taught not Evolution, they want Harry Potter banned, the Twilight series banned inspid as it is, they want childrens reading to be censored, the Government doesn't.


And you dont teach your kids your beliefs and morals?

What I teach them is up to me but I have taught them to question everything and not to inflict their views on others as being the one and only truth. the fundamentalists want the teaching in schools to be about their beliefs and morals, no one elses. they can do that if they start their own school but they won't they want all schools to teach only their beliefs.


In a way they are being punished for their beliefs and are not allowed to teach their children what they believe to be true.

Actually they aren't being punished, they refuse to send their children to school, that's against the law, they can start their own school and teach exactly what they want but they won't they wan in fact the German schools to be run the way they want it run.


They just want to teach their own kids I have not seen anything that say they want to teach everyone.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/jul2007/crea-j17.shtml

Across Europe this subject has been a political sore spot, already in Germany there's a push by fundamentalists to make schools teach Creationism. The fundamentalists definitely want the school curriculem changed so that it teaches their beliefs. It seems in some places in Germany they are managing it even when it's against the law.

"Biology at the private school, August Hermann Francke, in Gießen is taught by a teacher who defends creationism and rejects Darwin’s scientific account of evolution in favour of a literal reading of the Bible, whereby the history of mankind is just 6,000 years old. The same teachings are promulgated at the state-run Liebig school in the town. Although the Hessian constitution forbids such indoctrination, the state government has done nothing to prevent the teaching of evangelical fundamentalism at these schools."

As you can see from this article in Europe this is tied in with many things political, racial and religious. Home schooling is the least of the worries in Europe, the rise of the extreme right wing fundamentalists is a worrying thing to many here with long memories.

 

[Tez3]

Oh ok so its ok to comment on American but its not a two way street got it I didnt know the rules before.

Thats why most places have a set of things your required to teach

Yeah cause we all started as a blob of goo and eventually the little goo blobs smashed into eachother and everthing just randomly over time formed a Human is so much more believeable. Psss and dont ask where the goo came from cause we havent figured that out yet

Nobody is saying it should be the sole basis as I see it people only want the right to teach their own kids.

Ah if only it were that simple.

 

[ballen0351]

Wow the World Socialist web site thats not a bias group at all.
They are calling Obama a right winger lol
Nice website its comical. You dont really believe that stuff do you?

 

[ballen0351]

Ah if only it were that simple.

I think the fact they dont dont form a new school like you keep insisting they need to do proves it. They just want to teach to their kids in their homes

 

[billc]

Hmmm...I went to the world socialist website but is there a store on the site where the socialists can buy their brown shirts and their red shirts. I've heard that the new "green" shirts are going to be big at the G-8 protests this year...

 

[Tez3]

I'm afraid Obama is right wing compared to our left wingers. Most countries in Europe are actually socialist, not your type of socialist which is basically a communist but European socialism. Obama has done nothing that conservatives here don't do, the things he says and does are conservative and right wing. His policies argel nicely with our conservatives and nothing like the left wing policies. It's one of the biggest differences between our countries, our political views are radically different. It's respectable and decent to be a socialist here you know, we even have lots of liberals which is again a different thing from your liberals.


http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,2151809,00.html

 

[Tez3]

Hmmm...I went to the world socialist website but is there a store on the site where the socialists can buy their brown shirts and their red shirts. I've heard that the new "green" shirts are going to be big at the G-8 protests this year...

Really, your's will be the black shirt then. We know how to deal with them.

 

[Tez3]

I think the fact they dont dont form a new school like you keep insisting they need to do proves it. They just want to teach to their kids in their homes

If you say so. As an expert on German politics you must know more than Granfire and myself.

 

[billc]

Oh Tez, you know I am not a socialist of any stripe and I prefer golf shirts, they are more comfortable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackshirts

 

[ballen0351]

If you say so. As an expert on German politics you must know more than Granfire and myself.

I don't need to be an expert to see your logic is wrong. You say they want to teach all children their views. Then you show how easy it would be for them to start their own school which would help the goal you claim they have. Yet they don't want to have more schools they just want to teach their own kids in their own homes. Logic is a funny thing. But your right you lived there for a few years so your the expert. Lol yawn.

 

[Tez3]

I don't need to be an expert to see your logic is wrong. You say they want to teach all children their views. Then you show how easy it would be for them to start their own school which would help the goal you claim they have. Yet they don't want to have more schools they just want to teach their own kids in their own homes. Logic is a funny thing. But your right you lived there for a few years so your the expert. Lol yawn.

No, Granfire being German would be the expert wouldn't you think?

It's not my logic that's at fault, if it's that easy to start their own schools why are they coming to America as political asylumists ... because their aim isn't homeschooling or starting their own schools but to have the German schools teach what they want them to teach. they've come to America saying they are persecuted because of their religion when they could easily start their own small, 'homestyle' school in German, they came at the instigation of an American who's organisation's agenda is to have people home school, fair enough but bringing people over as political victims from Germany? Anyway, it's academic as they are all yours now, so you can have more schools teaching Creationism and leaving the inconvenient parts of your history out lol.

 

[ballen0351]

No, Granfire being German would be the expert wouldn't you think?

Umm nope. My mother is a German citizen as well ,she has a green card and refuses to become an American citizen but I wouldnt consider her an expert either. I have aunts and uncles that still live there I wouldnt consider them educational experts either. I live in the US does that make me an expert on all things American?

It's not my logic that's at fault, if it's that easy to start their own schools why are they coming to America as political asylumists ... because their aim isn't homeschooling or starting their own schools but to have the German schools teach what they want them to teach.

So which is it they want to change all German schools or flee to America?

they've come to America saying they are persecuted because of their religion when they could easily start their own small, 'homestyle' school in German, they came at the instigation of an American who's organisation's agenda is to have people home school, fair enough but bringing people over as political victims from Germany? Anyway, it's academic as they are all yours now, so you can have more schools teaching Creationism and leaving the inconvenient parts of your history out lol.

So now its and American agenda to bring Germans here? What goal would that serve?

 

[Tez3]

Umm nope. My mother is a German citizen as well ,she has a green card and refuses to become an American citizen but I wouldnt consider her an expert either. I have aunts and uncles that still live there I wouldnt consider them educational experts either. I live in the US does that make me an expert on all things American?



So which is it they want to change all German schools or flee to America?

So now its and American agenda to bring Germans here? What goal would that serve?

Do you actually read what I write? I said it was an American ( one American not America) who persuaded them to go, it's in two articles I posted links to.

This is hard work you know...the fundamentalist Christian group want the schools in German to teach Creationism and all the rest of the things they believe in, the German law says indoctrinisation is illegal, they teach about all religions not as faiths but as being part of the world, it's people and it's faiths. The fundamentalists don't like that view, they say the German school system teaches about Islam, vampires, witches etc etc. so they take their children out of shcool which is illegal in Germany. Instead of starting their own school which other parents do to satisfy both themselves and the law, this particular family has decided, on the advice of the American gentleman, that they want to be political asylum seekers, trying to make an international scandal out of a fairly simple situation. I don't know why this man suggested they come to America thereby leapfrogging thsoe who were waiting legitimately, perhaps you could ask him.