Home schooled kids removed from parents overseas...

[billc]

On my way to class tonight, radio host and constitutional law professor Hugh Hewitt interviewed a lawyer who works for the Alliance Defense Fund and their branch in Sweden. Apparently, the governments in Sweden, Germany and several other European countries are taking children away from their parents if those parents home school their children. Is this happening a lot in Europe? If it is happening, why do the governments get away with this? Perhaps someone could expand on this topic, it is pretty late already, need to sleep.

 

[Tez3]

No it doesn't happen a lot. It doesn't happen because children are home schooled, it happens because the children are abused or neglected.

 

[granfire]

Last time I looked, home schooling was not a viable option in Germany.
That pretty much means the kid has to have it's behind in a school bench somewhere. If it doesn't, authorities get involved. And since it's not commonly done, one can assume there are nefarious reasons why the kid id not in school.

 

[Jenna]

On my way to class tonight, radio host and constitutional law professor Hugh Hewitt interviewed a lawyer who works for the Alliance Defense Fund and their branch in Sweden. Apparently, the governments in Sweden, Germany and several other European countries are taking children away from their parents if those parents home school their children. Is this happening a lot in Europe? If it is happening, why do the governments get away with this? Perhaps someone could expand on this topic, it is pretty late already, need to sleep.

...Not so much in the UK. I have read of this before as a problem in Germany in particular.

 

[Tez3]

...Not so much in the UK. I have read of this before as a problem in Germany in particular.

It seems to depends on who is reporting the stories, the parents are invariably more vocal, most are the evangelical....I'm trying very hard to find polite words here... strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage.

 

[granfire]

It seems to depends on who is reporting the stories, the parents are invariably more vocal, most are the evangelical....I'm trying very hard to find polite words here... strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage.

That about sums it up.

 

[Tez3]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/27/german-home-schooling-family-asylum

"They said textbooks presented ideas and language that conflicted with their Christian beliefs, including slang terms for sex acts and images of vampires and witches, while the school offered what they described as ethics lessons from Islam, Buddhism and other religions"


I've seen the German school curriculum and it's far from anti Christian, when I lived there it was still a very Christian country, not too much in your face though and with their history they are striving to educate children in such a way they aren't brainwashed and can see the merits in other cultures. The last thing they want is any repeat of the past, they don't want the type of bigotry that a home schooled family like this can have with their disapproving religious views. I believe one of the reason Germany has outlawed home schools is to keep a check on any of the past anti semitism, homophobia and general extreme right wing hatred. It may not be what American are used to but then they don't have Germany's past. One must assume the Germans know best how to run their own country. If you don't live there you don't have to put up with their laws.

 

[granfire]

I don't even think it's fear of subversive thought.
it's just how thing are done. When the kid turns 3 you send it to kinder garden, when it's 6 it goes to school, until at least 16. Then either to high school and college or off to learn a trade. Homeschooling is an alien concept as far as I can tell.

Seems to work. The illiteracy rates are a good deal lower than the US... D)

 

[ballen0351]

I don't even think it's fear of subversive thought.
it's just how thing are done. When the kid turns 3 you send it to kinder garden, when it's 6 it goes to school, until at least 16. Then either to high school and college or off to learn a trade. Homeschooling is an alien concept as far as I can tell.

Seems to work. The illiteracy rates are a good deal lower than the US... D)

Ive never met a home school kid that couldnt read. We have a family in our Dojo that home school and use Karate as the physical education requirement and these kids are very smart and extreamly polite and respectful. I have met quite a few public high school kids and even graduates that couldnt write a simple victim witness statement. They have also stopped teaching cursive in public schools teenagers cant even sign thier name any longer they print it out and look at you crazy when you say no I need your signature sign your name.

 

[ballen0351]

You guys claim to be so "open minded" yet as soon as someone says they are Christian you automatically blast them as homophobic and "general extreme right wing hatred", close minded, "strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage". I dont see the same vile and hatred shown towards other religions.

 

[granfire]

You guys claim to be so "open minded" yet as soon as someone says they are Christian you automatically blast them as homophobic and "general extreme right wing hatred", close minded, "strident, half a dozen kids, homophobic, anti state types who may well be causing their children psychological damage". I dont see the same vile and hatred shown towards other religions.

well, those 'Christians' who insist on home schooling are usually of that ilk, making sure the kids don't stray from the fold.
There are a good many Christians that are not like that, heck the whole school is populated with them.

But unless the school is really crappy, that is the reason for most to pull their kids out. Around here the religious funded private schools had a huge boom in the 70s, when the parents did not want their kids to be bussed across town to go to school with 'them people'


However, in this context, In Germany (I don't dare speak about Sweden) it takes a lot of back bone to say 'I am Christian' unlike many parts of the US where it is as common as saying hello. But still, people who pull their kids out of school are considered odd, and in this context 'Christian' becomes suspect. You are not easily given a pass for homeschooling.

 

[ballen0351]

well, those 'Christians' who insist on home schooling are usually of that ilk, making sure the kids don't stray from the fold.
There are a good many Christians that are not like that, heck the whole school is populated with them.

Thats not true there are many people the choose to home school kids because in todays world public schools are becoming unsafe. We have gangs in our middle schools here. Drug dealers in our high schools. Large racially divided fights break out all the time. We have to install metal detectors and make kids use clear plastic back packs in our school here due to the numbers of guns being brought into our schools. Ive considered having my kids home schooled due to my elementary age daughter being picked on because her daddy is a police officer. Now my kids no to never talk about what daddy does for a living.
There are also many that feel public schools are just not teaching our children enough they have dumbed down the standards to make sure everyone passes and they cant afford private schools so the choose to home school.

But unless the school is really crappy, that is the reason for most to pull their kids out. Around here the religious funded private schools had a huge boom in the 70s, when the parents did not want their kids to be bussed across town to go to school with 'them people'

Thats still a concern today only "them people" today refer to drug dealers and gangs not a race or religion. We also have a group here that home school because they feel public schools have too large of a carbon foot print and refuse to support the polution of all the papers used in our schools. The regulary are seen protesting the ASPCA for "jailing" animals and not releasing them because as they say "Dogs are people too" so there are all kinds that home school for all different reasons but you all went right to the "narrow minded christians".

However, in this context, In Germany (I don't dare speak about Sweden) it takes a lot of back bone to say 'I am Christian' unlike many parts of the US where it is as common as saying hello. But still, people who pull their kids out of school are considered odd, and in this context 'Christian' becomes suspect. You are not easily given a pass for homeschooling.

 

[granfire]

Thats not true there are many people the choose to home school kids because in todays world public schools are becoming unsafe. We have gangs in our middle schools here. Drug dealers in our high schools. Large racially divided fights break out all the time. We have to install metal detectors and make kids use clear plastic back packs in our school here due to the numbers of guns being brought into our schools. Ive considered having my kids home schooled due to my elementary age daughter being picked on because her daddy is a police officer. Now my kids no to never talk about what daddy does for a living.
There are also many that feel public schools are just not teaching our children enough they have dumbed down the standards to make sure everyone passes and they cant afford private schools so the choose to home school.

I said 'if the school isn't crap'
Yes, I understand there can be a problem with such, drugs and violence. However it is probably not the norm (though even here in Podunk we got our resident drug dealer in the school)

Thats still a concern today only "them people" today refer to drug dealers and gangs not a race or religion. We also have a group here that home school because they feel public schools have too large of a carbon foot print and refuse to support the polution of all the papers used in our schools. The regulary are seen protesting the ASPCA for "jailing" animals and not releasing them because as they say "Dogs are people too" so there are all kinds that home school for all different reasons but you all went right to the "narrow minded christians".

In the 70s it was not drug dealers who were 'them people'
If I get any more precise you call me a racist again.
And of course you have your run of the mill nut bags. Also not a group of people who should be allowed to limit their children's exposure to the real world.

Thank you for proving the point.


however, I think it was hinted in the article of billi's majikal link skillz that religion was a point for the people to home school.
Sweden and Germany are very different than the US.

(also, in some countries, education of teachers is not an after thought. I had 2 teachers in High School who had earned their doctors. You dn't see subs that canbarely spell their own names over there)

 

[ballen0351]

In the 70s it was not drug dealers who were 'them people'
If I get any more precise you call me a racist again.

Thats whay I said today "them People" are drug dealers I understood what you ment.

 

[billc]

Here is an article on the new home schooling laws in Sweden. The article is from 2010, and at first glance, it looks like they are targeting people who are religous.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/18/home-school-ban-in-sweden-forces-families-to-mull-/?page=all

The

Swedish Liberal Party pushed a new 1,500-page schooling law through last month one paragraph of which will make home schooling as an expression of religion or philosophy effectively impossible for Swedish families, other than in “exceptional circumstances” such as health issues or distance from a public school. The law also severely restricts religious practice in Sweden’s “confessional” schools.

And this part from the article:

Unlike in the U.S., Sweden’s home-schoolers do not fit a particular religious profile and are about as secular as the rest of the country but favor an educational style different from what Sweden’s state schools deliver.

 

[decepticon]

We are Christians and we homeschool our only child. However those are the only similarities I can see between us and the "ilk" previously described. It is incorrect and offensive to tar all of us with the same brush.

It is interesting to me that many here seem to feel that the German government is justified in determining how people should indoctrinate their children (or not). Isn't the government taking control of how parents teach their children to think part of the reason the trouble started there before? A telling facet of a government is how they deal with people who do not share the prevailing/politically correct beliefs.

In my experience during the 10 years I have been homeschooling, the only unifying factor that I can find among homeschooling families is a strong sense of independence. After that, it seems that they are all over the board. All religions, all ethnic backgrounds, conservative and liberal and everything in between, a wide range of educational, economic, and social goals for their children, and they experience varying degrees of success in attaining those goals. Some small groups may stand out as more colorful than others, but they in no way represent the wider majority of homeschoolers.

It seems to me that on the international scene, homeschooling is often used as an excuse to persecute families that are otherwise not fitting in with the government program. The root problem rarely has much to do with the actual education of the children and much to do with a dislike of the politics and beliefs of the parents.

BTW, I have met at least 8 different homeschoolers at the dojo where we train. For those school owners looking for another demographic group to which to market, I would certainly encourage you to consider tapping into your local homeschooling community.

 

[Tez3]

As I understand it Christianity comes in many flavours, strange how when one says something about one certain type of Christian it's assumed that it's an attack on all, far from it.
I'm always curious why people get on their high horse about something that happens in another country, I lived there for three years, didn't see anything wrong with the school system, it was liberal, gave children a good all round education, tried to be aware of ethnic diversity, didn't want children brainwashed by one type of one faith. It's that last that theses parents of one particular church are complaing about, they also complain about playing cards, horoscopes, Halloween type things, fairy stories, Harry Potter, yoga and martial arts. Worse still to many people's minds as parts of Germany are staunchly Roman Catholic (the town I lived in was, here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeze ) they believe and preach the Pope is the Anti Christ. Not very tolerant. Far from the government brainwashing and wanting the children indoctrinated, these children are by their parents. They hate Catholics and believe everyone who doesn't believe as they do will go to hell, they also picket synagogues and places of worship for other faiths. I believe you have the same type of people who turn up at military funerals rejoicing at another dead soldier. Perhaps now you know what I'm talking about. I did actually say that it was a type rather than Christians so stop being offended, no one was saying it was all Christians, it was a certain type of them.

 

[ballen0351]

As I understand it Christianity comes in many flavours, strange how when one says something about one certain type of Christian it's assumed that it's an attack on all, far from it.

Maybe when you lumped ALL home schoolers into this group including non-extreamist christians that just want to teach thier own kids.

I'm always curious why people get on their high horse about something that happens in another country

you mean like all the comments about the elections in the US from non-American? kInda like that? Its a forum someone posted a topic and people responded to it I didnt know we were only allowed to comment on topics that are related to where we live.

I lived there for three years, didn't see anything wrong with the school system, it was liberal, gave children a good all round education, tried to be aware of ethnic diversity, didn't want children brainwashed by one type of one faith. It's that last that theses parents of one particular church are complaing about, they also complain about playing cards, horoscopes, Halloween type things, fairy stories, Harry Potter, yoga and martial arts.

So what gives the state the right to decide how to teach your children? As long as the are fed, housed, loved, who cares what religion they are taught? Muslims make there daughters cover thier faces why is that ok but telling your children that sex should be saved until your married and non-believers will not be going to heaven is so wrong?

 

[Tez3]

Maybe when you lumped ALL home schoolers into this group including non-extreamist christians that just want to teach thier own kids.
you mean like all the comments about the elections in the US from non-American? kInda like that? Its a forum someone posted a topic and people responded to it I didnt know we were only allowed to comment on topics that are related to where we live.
So what gives the state the right to decide how to teach your children? As long as the are fed, housed, loved, who cares what religion they are taught? Muslims make there daughters cover thier faces why is that ok but telling your children that sex should be saved until your married and non-believers will not be going to heaven is so wrong?

It matters what religion is taught when that 'religion' is hatred. You did read the bit about how they picket synagogues and Muslim places of worship? How they teach the Pope is the Anti Christ?

Comments made by non Americans on the American elections aren't criticisms and condemnation. The comments are one thing, getting on your high horse is another.

'The State' means something different to Europeans than to Americans. We pay for the schools ( although many countries aren't states in Europe they are democratic monarchies, the UK isn't a state.) and we decide what is taught, the 'state' doesn't.

I made no mention of sex. I did however mention the hatred these people have for others including fellow Christians. Tell your children what you want, it's when you tell me that I'm going to hell that I complain. If you read what I wrote I said they tell people of other religions (and none) that they will go to hell, they go out in the streets and buttonhole you to spit it in your face. If they want to left alone to teach their children what they want they have to leave the rest of us alone to teach what we want to our children, fair's fair.

I didn't lump all home schoolers in together, I was talking about those in the article I linked to.

No wonder there's strife when people read things into other's comments something that isn't there.

 

[granfire]

Maybe when you lumped ALL home schoolers into this group including non-extreamist christians that just want to teach thier own kids.
you mean like all the comments about the elections in the US from non-American? kInda like that? Its a forum someone posted a topic and people responded to it I didnt know we were only allowed to comment on topics that are related to where we live.
So what gives the state the right to decide how to teach your children? As long as the are fed, housed, loved, who cares what religion they are taught? Muslims make there daughters cover thier faces why is that ok but telling your children that sex should be saved until your married and non-believers will not be going to heaven is so wrong?

Well, non-Americans are very much affected by the outcome of the US elections. I know it is hard to comprehend, but there it is.

As to religion, the state does not give a crap about what religion somebody is. They do however demand that the education is not affected by it.
You know, like trying to pass of the intelligent design and creationism as science.
Or lack of tolerance towards other people of other denomination, let alone faith.

In Germany there used to be religion class: Protestant and catholic. Later on, in the 80s ethics was added as choice. You choose. Children of other faiths were exempt from having to attend religion, they usually took ethics. And no, don't ask, I have no idea what either is supposed to accomplish. Ethics was some anthroposophical junk, I am assuming because the teacher was a jerk...

But generally, there is no pressure one way or another about religion. But you can't make that the sole base of education.