History of long term disabling joint injuries in kicking arts? Beginning at 42 & concerned

[fishnaked]

Hello,

Are joint problems (mainly knee or hip) common place for older martial artists...whether they've been studying for years or started later in life?

I began Shotokan Karate early this year at age 41 (I'm 42 now) and I'm thoroughly enjoying it...particularly the kicking aspect as, knock on wood, I'm naturally very flexible and still surprisingly agile and quick. Wanting to take advantage of these fortunes while I can, I take private lessons 2x week and solo practice every day for up to an hour. I also read everything I can and watch as many applicable videos as possible. In short, I have become very passionate about this. For me, there's great beauty in the kicks and I'm interested in the form more for the philosophical and art aspect than anything. I'm not overly interested in competition or even necessarily kicking a bag as hard as possible.

All that said, I'm very concerned about joint injuries...particularly hip and knees (meniscus surgery 6 yrs ago). As much as I want to continue, if it means I am highly likely to develop crippling injuries later on, I will suppress my desire to pursue this to the degree that I want.

I would appreciate any and all insight all of you may have here. Thanks!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I started Isshin-Ryu at age 47. I am now 49, and I'm OK. Injuries are not uncommon, however. I have broken a couple toes learning to kick correctly. I got punched once in the ribs during sparring and had pain even breathing for a couple weeks while it healed. And yes, I hurt my knee. It took a long time to get better.

However, I hurt my knee doing something foolish. I was attempting a 'flying' side kick, which is not something we do in Isshin-Ryu, and I was not required to do it. I was out-of-shape and severely overweight, and I landed badly on one leg, which could not support my weight. I would advise you to avoid such maneuvers; I certainly do so now.

I spend a lot of time stretching prior to class, and I take it seriously; I really stretch, I don't just act like I'm stretching. I warm up slowly and make sure that my body feels good about anything we're doing in class. I am fortunate that my sensei never orders me to do anything I don't feel capable of doing. I always do my best, but I don't try to fly like the kids or kick over my head, etc. Well, actually I can front kick over my head now, but it took me two years to get here.

I can't speak for Shotokan, but in Isshin-Ryu, I don't worry too much about my hip joints. It does take some work to get my hips to open up on certain kicks, but stretching and practice fix that for me. Knees are at risk if you don't pay attention to your limitations. Just my 2 cents.

 

[shesulsa]

If you train smart and focus on effectiveness and correct form, you should be fine.

Start low and slow.
Stay light on your feet.
Keep your eyes on your target.
Kick correctly to the height you can comfortably, then push this particular envelope.
Remember kicks come from the *HIP* - *NOT* the knee NOR the foot.

Condition yourself according to YOUR needs, not the ideal for some 16-year-old.

If you start getting sore or experiencing some pain regularly when you kick, get a consult with a physical therapist familiar with martial arts training. You stand a good chance at finding out what you may be doing wrong or where your strength/flexibility challenges lie.

Train realistically, strive for perfection.

 

[Carol]

Find out if your school has a running requirement. I started MA training when I was 36 (I'm 41 now) and was a bit taken aback when I found out that most MA schools have some kind of running requirement for black belt grades or even the higher color belt level. For me, that's flat out of the question -- my hips and knees can't take it.

 

[seasoned]

It's the draw of the cards. At 67 I have been training for 43 years. I am not pain free, but I get by better then some of my friends that have had hip and knee replacements in later years. Earlier years I trained hard and was very flexible, but now I train more for form with low kicks. I will tell you this, that every injury you get early on, will come back to haunt you.
As was stated, train wisely.

 

[fishnaked]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, everyone. The more I read and the deeper I dig into the recesses of my brain where common sense lies but often gets overridden by desire, I know that serious martial arts training is probably not in my best interest. My knee I had surgery on has been my biggest concern....likely because it bothers me as often as it doesn't (strengthening would help considerably, I'm sure). However, as much as I want to block it out, I have to remember all the other injuries I have incurred in other activities over the last 20 yrs (shoulders, wrists, elbow, ribs, pecs). I know my chances of developing arthritis in those areas are higher and it seems if I'm repeatedly and abruptly kicking, stomping and generally doing things that jar those areas, my likely-hood of becoming arthritic become that much greater.

Though I can't deny liking the idea of becoming highly adept at defending myself, perhaps, due to wanting to minimize my chances of long term problems, I should focus on the philosophical and artistic aspects instead. After all, it is the beauty of the form that caught my attention some 30 odd years ago.

At any rate, I would enjoy reading more thoughts on these aspects of the martial arts.

Thanks again for the replies and I look forward to seeing more.

 

[Carol]

A lot of people with injuries, and even disabilities train in martial arts. Perhaps they are not training to be the next heavyweight boxer or UFC champion, but they still train....and many of us have found our health is the better for it.

It is possible to train, and train safely. The key is finding a good teacher that is understanding of your needs, and can work with you appropriately, instead of machine-gunning you through a one-size-fits-all curriculum.

What I would recommend is visiting schools and asking teachers if they have had students with issue like yours before. If they say yes, ask them HOW they have managed students with similar issues.

If you get specific details, then that is a good sign that the teacher is going to be very helpful. If they blow off your concerns with a "don't worry about it, you'll do just fine" comment, then move on to the next option. There are good people out there, they may be at the first school you visit, or they may be further down the line, but they're out there.

 

[TwentyThree]

NOT stretching and exercising is almost as bad though, or so I have read.

However, why not look to an internal art, like Taichijuan (taught as a martial art and not as exercise)?

I have had several bad knee injuries and repeated wrist injuries and I practice a hybrid of TKD as well as Modern Arnis (I started at 39 and I'm 42 now).

I don't find I have any additional pain or risk to injury as long as I stretch properly and pay close attention to technique.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One of the things that damages more people is kicking in the air too much and locking their kicks out hard. This can only cause you issues down the road so I would avoid that as much as possible. I know several people who started in hard martial arts like Tae Kwon Do and yes Shotokan who had hip surgery at a young age. However, they were people who liked to kick the air alot and lock those kicks out to hear the uniform snap. Just not a good idea!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, everyone. The more I read and the deeper I dig into the recesses of my brain where common sense lies but often gets overridden by desire, I know that serious martial arts training is probably not in my best interest. My knee I had surgery on has been my biggest concern....likely because it bothers me as often as it doesn't (strengthening would help considerably, I'm sure). However, as much as I want to block it out, I have to remember all the other injuries I have incurred in other activities over the last 20 yrs (shoulders, wrists, elbow, ribs, pecs). I know my chances of developing arthritis in those areas are higher and it seems if I'm repeatedly and abruptly kicking, stomping and generally doing things that jar those areas, my likely-hood of becoming arthritic become that much greater.

Though I can't deny liking the idea of becoming highly adept at defending myself, perhaps, due to wanting to minimize my chances of long term problems, I should focus on the philosophical and artistic aspects instead. After all, it is the beauty of the form that caught my attention some 30 odd years ago.

At any rate, I would enjoy reading more thoughts on these aspects of the martial arts.

Thanks again for the replies and I look forward to seeing more.

I am going to a wedding today. One of my fellow students is getting married. He's 73. He is a ni-dan, a 2nd degree black belt. He started training in his 60's. He is recovering from prostate cancer. He is not limber, not fast (but he's faster than I am), and he's quite capable of kicking my butt, thank you very much.

I wish you the best of luck in your journey, but please understand that you can train if you want to train. Being cautious does not mean you can't do it.

 

[fishnaked]

It's the draw of the cards. At 67 I have been training for 43 years. I am not pain free, but I get by better then some of my friends that have had hip and knee replacements in later years. Earlier years I trained hard and was very flexible, but now I train more for form with low kicks. I will tell you this, that every injury you get early on, will come back to haunt you.
As was stated, train wisely.

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your wisdom! Question though. Do you think the problems with your friend's hips and knees were caused by martial arts?

The more people I talk to, the more knee and hip problems I hear about in the martial arts. From what I can tell though, a common denominator seems to be snapping kicks like Brian mentioned and kicking bags hard and often.

 

[fishnaked]

Thanks to all that have replied. I appreciate and respect each and every one of your opinions!

To Carol - I have already chosen an instructor. For now, it's private one on one and we talk a lot about working around my previous injuries. I am also good friends with this instructor's senior instructor (62 yrs old & training for 30+ yrs). This senior instructor lives 2 hrs from me so I don't get to practice with him often. I do however correspond with him via phone and email a fair bit.

That said, though I'm getting good and close attention from these instructors, I enjoy hearing the opinions of others (both new and seasoned martial artist) and want to broaden that as much as possible. This forum seems like a great gateway for that. I'm especially interested in hearing from those who have been around the martial arts for decades.

Thanks again to all those who replied! I would enjoy hearing from more people or again from those who have already replied. I feel that this shared knowledge and experience on a forum like this is invaluable.

 

[Master Dan]

Hello,

Are joint problems (mainly knee or hip) common place for older martial artists...whether they've been studying for years or started later in life?

They can be but don't have to be. First you have the right motovation for your training is for health and spirit. There are many good supplements now to help joint health just Google. Second make a three day a week plan for complete joint manipulation, breathing and stretching either seperate or added to the begining of all your work outs. Find someone to teach you this that is an expert in training people who are over 40 and out of shape. Make sure your work outs are slow gradual increase in strength and flexability. ( You should always feel better at the end not worse) Doing this I have gained 50% to 75% more flexability and I can do forms cold with out warm up with full extension and snap but remeber you always need to warm up just for health.

Third: it is rediculous for any person over 40 to be doing to many hard and repedative movements over and over. Self Defense requires more deliberate actions applied to the right spot at the right time with knowledge and Ki, chi what ever you want to call it. After you learn the public performance of your Kata's and get your Black Belt I hope your Master will teach you the spiritual and the BonKi (or applications) meanings of your forms because it will change how you do them and why I hope also you will be able to practice those applications with a partner or partners. Frankly if I think the person is not a threat to anyone and has the right attitude I will give them what they can handle a little at a time from green belt on at this age because they need to be be able to defend themselves better as soon as possible.

Remember there is no rush you are training for yourself if you train right in 12-18 months you will be in better shape or feel better than when you were 20 but do not do things a 40 year old should not. No one knows your body better than you there is good constructive pain and abusive and destructive pain know the difference. Also just becuase somebody has rank and a room full of competition trophies does not mean he is a good teacher for you. If your Master instructor seems to be very concerned and knowledgable about your physiology and health good if not consult with your past rehabilitation experts on what is bad for you and what is good for you.

LEARN HOW TO FALL WELL TILL IT BECOMES REFLEX:

Leading cause of death in the US at ages 50 and older is falling. Falling and the complications from the injuries kill more people than anything else. Many great MA athletes have sustained permanent and dibilitating injuries by participating in other sports, Basket Ball, Volley Ball and lost thier Knees due to not knowing how to fall.

DO NOT DO HIGH IMPACT EXERCISES OR LANDINGS. If you weigh more than 175 pounds land soft no hard landings or stomping. The one thing I love about the Okinawan or Japanese arts is droping the Chi by knowing how to drop your weight with and applied technique that adds energy and channeld force but there many ways to do that with a soft landing or positioning however there are just some moves that just need a good stomp if you are conditioned for it fine.

BEAR FEET ARE NOT GOOD FOR OVER 40;
Your not poor living in a village and trust me you are not going to fight someone on the street in bear feet. Get the best training shoes you can. Do some bear feet for conditioning and so you can manipulate your feet during the stretching and breathing work out but for long durations of Kata or other training unless it is on mats or some kind of cusioned floor wear the shoes.

ダン師
Master Dan Scholten
http://nometaekwondoacademy.yolasite.com/

 

[Master Dan]

RUNNING IS WRONG REGARDLES OF WHAT THE RUNNERS SAY!!!!

I started with one of the most respected GM in the world and the best contact fighter his first cousin Mas Oyama. He trained us on a 1/4 track in summers and I qoute( run fast 100 yards then walk recover your breath and heart rate that best simulates fighting, fast action recovery. There are people who continue to run even after injury because they are addicted to the endorfins!!!!!!!

Low impact striding I can go 5 mph and you need to work your hands and arms and upper body while you do this 30 minutes to 60 minutes a day. For weight loss you only need to raise your resting heart rate 12 beats per minutes its metabolisim you are trying to change cardio vasular do not go over 130 beats per minute at your age you will do more damage than good.

For those of you on High Blood presure meds you may not go above 90 to 100 that is fine.

Remember over 40 you are training for you no body else not to go back to what you looked like at 20 or somebodies elses vision of what you should look like.

ダン師
Master Dan Scholten

http://nometaekwondoacademy.yolasite.com/

 

[seasoned]

Thank you for your post. I appreciate your wisdom! Question though. Do you think the problems with your friend's hips and knees were caused by martial arts?

The more people I talk to, the more knee and hip problems I hear about in the martial arts. From what I can tell though, a common denominator seems to be snapping kicks like Brian mentioned and kicking bags hard and often.

The more flexible and agile you are the harder you will snap your kicks. Although I feel Resistance is good I do feel that there is no need to air kick hard all the time. Even slamming the heavy bag day in and day out will take it's toll. My motto is "it's not how hard you kick or strike that counts, but where you hit that matters". In the case of a few of my friends, one around my age and another in his 50's, it was a matter of not pacing yourself according to you age. Aging gracefully means not trying to keep up with your younger self, and stay within your limits. :asian:

 

[Master Dan]

The more flexible and agile you are the harder you will snap your kicks. Although I feel Resistance is good I do feel that there is no need to air kick hard all the time. Even slamming the heavy bag day in and day out will take it's toll. My motto is "it's not how hard you kick or strike that counts, but where you hit that matters". In the case of a few of my friends, one around my age and another in his 50's, it was a matter of not pacing yourself according to you age. Aging gracefully means not trying to keep up with your younger self, and stay within your limits. :asian:

You are so correct but we live in an age of many options for training. I too do not agree with too many snaping kicks in the air. In fact we do many movements that are more isometric especially in warm ups. I find that increased circular movements with increased breathing and Chi Gong/and HapKido traditional visualization gives me the ability to call up speed any time I need it. You must also have resistance but for any one older or not in top shape and trained on a heavy bag leave it alone!!! with out an expert to assess your health condition and gradually slowly work you up to the proper resistance you need. We now have air bags that you can adjust the resistance by the amount of water you place in the bottom. The Wave Master XXL is excellent but there are many other combinations even non bag related. You must be able to have penetrating kicks that push with strong balance and pin point accuracy. But Head Kicks yeh when they are laying on the ground!

I have never heard of anyone attacked by Air????? why fight Air????
I have met many fine martial artists at even master level who could rip the air and look quite beautiful/a Japanese girl very traditionally trained visited and I put her in class with me and she could not relate her feet to touching anything usefull. There are two types of muscle fiber we develope one is for speed and the other is balance and power. You cannot defend yourself with out good balance and flexabilty. Falling well may be the best counter to getting out of a hold or throw.

You can also get light weight hanging bags and air filled bags. Masters need to learn to teach people at all levels not one size fits all. In the US the largest market of people out there is sick and out of shape people. Start a class just for them at thier pace. I founded a class called KIDO which is one hour and fifteen minutes of stretching breathing and isometric moves to music ending with what is called a passive adjustment to the entire spinal column which Chiropractors do not want you to learn becuase it would put them out of business. You have to do 20 movements for friction not stretching to melt the disks in you back then lay down with two towels rolled specific diameter for minimum of ten minutes to specific music I use Gathering of Shaman it has a heart beat drum which is crucial to meditative states and I teach them how to be listen to thier heart rate then the second song comes on and its is a slower heart rate and people learn how to control thier heart rate.

Many people fall asleep before the end of the ten minutes even snoring. What happens after your back cools it hardens in the correct curviture or the Three C's when your back develops the right curviture your disks rotate naturally in line. Remeber those stiff necks or low back pain or the pinch in your shoulder. All gone sometimes even after one time. I traveled nation wide and walked into any studio regardles of style many full contact people or just regular joes and taught this and it worked every time. You increase communiction from the brain to the organs your digest changes many things change. YOU MUST KNOW HOW TO TEACH THIS People need different ways of laying flat on thier back with the towels depending on weight and injuries they also need to know how to get up after your done, role to left side then face down then slow rock back sit on legs then slow up or they could pass out.

Teaching this class I have found 50% or more want more after 90 days and start TKD training as well. I have taught this class to Masters and thier wives and they come out in one class and feel like they are younger and have more energy. It is also a bonding class for adults we do not allow under people under the age of 30 in the class except maybe advanced TKD students that have alot of repsect and will not make any older out of shape person feel uncomfortable. This is the ideal class for people wanting to stop smoking, drinking and other issues.

Want to make more money get more support for your youth programs the adults in this class are judges, attorneys, important or connected people in your coummunity. I teach it for free because frankly I have to do this work out and there is a group energy you can feed on more than by yourself. After training with a half Korean half chinese Ostiopath doctor who traind for 10 years with Shoalin's I had a sever back injury could not walk or tie my shoes his knowledge with others I healed my own back with out surgery and can do anything part of those movements are in this work out. Start helping and healing people and the next thing you know you will have all the support you need to do anything.
SOME TIMES FOR FUN WE CALL IT HIPPIE DO turn out the lights use black lights all 70's music its a blast. I do require black sweat or loose fitting pants and a blue soft traditional top but in Hippie Do everybody wears tie died shirts, head bands or anything else 60's provided nothing is exposed we don't want to see?

With out knowing it they are gaining MA and self defense skills which creates apetite for more. I have had people quite thier jobs and move after doing this class because they all of a sudden have the abilty to do more and want more.

YOUTH IS WASTED ON THE YOUNG

ダン師
Master Dan Scholten

http://nometaekwondoacademy.yolasite.com/

 

[girlbug2]

I'd say don't actually kick the heavy bags, but instead train with a partner and kick the pads that your partner holds for you. I was told by my instructor that repeatedly kicking heavy bags is asking for injuries.

 

[Golden Harvest]

The more flexible and agile you are the harder you will snap your kicks. Although I feel Resistance is good I do feel that there is no need to air kick hard all the time. Even slamming the heavy bag day in and day out will take it's toll. My motto is "it's not how hard you kick or strike that counts, but where you hit that matters". In the case of a few of my friends, one around my age and another in his 50's, it was a matter of not pacing yourself according to you age. Aging gracefully means not trying to keep up with your younger self, and stay within your limits. :asian:

Very well said and much wisdom offered. As one ages, health becomes more important than fighting. Without your health, nothing really matters. This is one reason why Tai Chi is popular with many former hard style martial art practioners. You get health and martial art in one. I can not imagine seeing a 75 year-old person performing a flying spin kick and landing on the ground with a 180 degree leg split. In some martial arts there is indeed a built-in retirement age. In Tai Chi, there are none. Peace and health be with you.

 

[Nomad]

If you've previously had meniscus tears and surgery, you are right to be concerned.

In my experience, the worst Shotokan techniques for me were back stances and repetitious kicks in class. Any of the deep, low stances can aggravate the problem, but back stance was the killer. In my case, it got to the point where I made the decision to stop training in that system (which I loved!) because it was doing too much long term damage to me (developing osteoarthritis in that knee).

That said, it will depend on the school, the sensei, and yourself whether you can modify the techniques to better protect these areas. If not, it may be worthwhile to look into training methods of other systems to see if you can find a better match. Best of luck in your decisions!

 

[billc]

I think that stretching using the splits might add to knee injuries. It has been a long time since my sport karate days, but back in the day, the ability to kick high for kata competition drove everyone to do the splits and I think stretch excessively.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...i=11le3irb8&sigb=13phqnpaa&.crumb=L0HkgFessug

The pressure on the knees in the above picture can't be good for them. Even doing this type of split on the floor I think can cause damage over time, especially in someone older. All that downward force going against the knee joint in a direction the knee is not supposed to go in.

I think if you start rigorous stretching as you grow older, you risk more injuries. Also, how your knee tracks as you hold a stance probably leads to injuries as well. My instructor in Kempo emphasized the to protect the knee, it had to be positioned over the toes when holding a stance, especially a back stance or cat stance.

For example, in a back stance with the left foot pointing toward an opponent and the right pointing 90 degrees from the opponent, I have seen people with their right knee drifting away from over their toes, leaning toward where the opponent is. The majority of your weight is then pushing down on the knee when it is structurally unsupported, and you are torqueing it as well. I think if you do this over a period of years you will suffer a bit of damage.

If you look at this hastily grabbed picture, if you draw a line perpendicular to the floor through his knee, his weight is being carried by a structurally unsupported knee, and there is twist on the knee as well as he tries to address his opponent. I think this may lead to knee injuries over time.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...i=11e5av9o9&sigb=141hnlaff&.crumb=L0HkgFessug

Even this forward stance, the knee is not over the toes and is being twisted as the man tries to orient forwards.

http://images.search.yahoo.com/imag...i=11ost5jt1&sigb=13s649ldb&.crumb=L0HkgFessug

If you draw a line through the knee, the pressure is going in a direction the knee is not supposed to move. Over time, I think this might cause knee problems.