Overtraining, Incorrect Training, Injuries...

Flying Crane

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This thread was inspired by a discussion going on over at Kenpotalk, regarding injuries, the use of pain killers, and the long-term cumulative effects of training on the body. It sort of got me thinking.

A few generations ago, people didn't live as long as they do now. Circumstances of life, less sophisticated medical capabilities, nutrition, harsher living and working conditions, etc. all contributed to a shorter lifespan in general. People perhaps didn't live long enough to realize the cumulative injury potential that martial practice, over a long period of time, can have. Now we live longer, and I would bet many more people are realizing first hand the potential for injury.

I have seen schools that practice techniques that seem foolish and/or dangerous. And many of the senior students are hobbling around with shoulder injuries, knee injuries, wrist injuries, neck and back injuries, etc. You name it, someone there has it. And they keep pushing thru, and keep training.

My sifu says that in China, they keep pushing the limits of human capabilities in Modern Wushu. In order to stay ahead of the competition, they come up with more radical ideas, and all the competitors have joint injuries, where that was not true a few decades ago. And they also get injuries from the weapons, because they try to use them in more outlandish ways than before.

In capoeira, more and more extreme acrobatics are becoming the norm. In my opinion, this can be to the detriment of the art, as it places more emphasis on performance, and less on intelligent development of the encounter. But this is where I personally see a lot of students with injuries of every kind, yet they keep training, and these injuries never go away. Since I have been mostly away from capoeira for several years and I am seeing this more and more with the group I used to train with, I think I must have just dodged a bullet and gotten out in time to avoid the same injuries that the other students are having.

People who practice systems that are very "kicking intensive" have destroyed knees and hips. People who spend years striking hard surfaces have severe arthritis in old age.

I think some of these injuries are cumulative after many years of training. Others are the product of doing stupid things, such as the extreme acrobatics in capoeira, and modern wushu. These are young people with these injuries, people in their 20s and 30s.

I guess I just wanted to bring this up and encourage people to take a look at their training to see if they might be headed down a road leading to debilitating injuries.

Make sure what you are practicing isn't simply asking for injury.

Make sure what you are practicing isn't causing a slow build-up for injury later.

Make sure HOW you practice is correct, so that you can practice for many years without injury.

Make sure the intensity of what you practice isn't contributing to injuries later. Maybe you don't need to do 1000 kicks every day to have good kicks. Maybe you can have plenty good kicks by doing 100 every day. Maybe every kick doesn't have to be head-high.

I believe that if we practice correctly, regularly, and with reasonable intensity, we can develop high level skills that will not leave us debilitated in old age. I think we can continue to practice our arts even in old age, and if done correctly for a lifetime, we shouldn't need to give up the harder arts in favor of the softer arts like Tai Chi Chuan, if we don't want to.

I think that if we overtrain, train incorrectly, train with poor technique, and train questionable material, we are bound to get injured eventually. And in old age, this might leave us crippled and unable to do anything.

Thoughts, anyone? Examples, suggestions, etc? Please jump in.
 

Andrew Green

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I'm sith you all the way. Training should keep you healthy, not cripple you.

I remember reading a quote by one of the Okinawan masters about how to tell if a persons karate was good, and he said it came down to how long they lived. Not meaning taken down by thugz on the str33tz, but how long they where able to keep there body / mind healthy.

I do think there is a place for both. Some people need to push the limits, thats just who they are. They take training to extremes, fight full contact regullarly, etc. And that is great, we can learn a lot from them, but not everyone needs to or should do that.

I guess if you give a bunch of people a limited supply of food and isolate them they will all do different things. Some will have a big meal and enjoy themselves as much as they can for a short period. Others will ration it to the extreme and barely survive as long as they possibly can, and most will be in the middle.

My training is far from "perfect" in terms of going for long term health above all else, but it isn't at the other extreme either. I'm somewhere in the middle, thats where I find the most enjoyment for the longest time balance out.

I eat reasonably healthy, but still enjoy some rather unhealthy food as well. Some people eat crap and enjoy it briefly, others eat as healthy as they can and don't go for that extra piece of cake and 6 extra beer. I like the extras once and a while, I know they aren't the best for me, but gotta have fun. Same thing in training. Got to push things once and a while, just not too far, but never pushing them is boring ;)
 

Xue Sheng

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WHAT!!!!! NOT Work through the pain... Well that’s...that’s...just...

Good advice actually.

I have trained through pain only to regret it anywhere from weeks to years later. However in training you are on occasion going to get hurt, but I do not think anything you are saying is even talking about the average training injury.

If you have strong basics, which are boring to learn, you will get fewer injuries. However I have seen some training ideas and practices over the years that are just not good and I know they will pay for it later.

What I think part of the problem has to do with age specific training as well. As hard as it is for many of us to admit it, when your 40 you generally could not survive the workout of a 20 year old.

Also some styles such as Wushu in China are pushing the limits of human endurance which in some cases may be a good thing but more often than not you will pay for it later, not the next day so much but years down the road.

I have not always felt this way but I have started thinking this way in the last 10 or so years and the bottom line is I train MA to be healthy and I want to be able to walk when I'm 80 so why beat myself up. I sometimes revert to old ways of thinking and forget my age - but pain is a great reminder
 

Blotan Hunka

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You have to look at your goals. If you are going out to compete or fight at a professional level, you made that decision and should accept the consequences. That being said, you should have a plan concerning the length of your career and how far and how long you will need to push youself to reach that goal. If you are hammering youself out of some misplaced idea that you need to be trained like a professional athlete 24-7, when your life doesnt require it. Well you are asking for trouble. Pros know the difference between training for competition (which is cycled and only for a limited length over ones lifespan) and just training for general physical conditioning.

That being said, most of us dont push ourselves nearly as hard as we should to be in the best long term shape. So I wouldnt use this thread as an excuse to coast.
 
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Flying Crane

Flying Crane

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That being said, most of us dont push ourselves nearly as hard as we should to be in the best long term shape. So I wouldnt use this thread as an excuse to coast.

Very very good point. I think our society encourages us to embrace mediocrity. Most of us could safely do much more and much better than we do.
 

grydth

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One need not embrace either mediocrity nor insanity.

Mr Green makes an excellent point about training.
 

still learning

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Hello, Many of us over do some of our training. The only way to improve many times is to push yourself to do more.

Boxers as they age....gets "punch drunk" ....from there heads getting hit so many times.

Look at Professior Football players with those injuries that catch up to them as they age.

Cashiers at stores get Carpal ? wrist problems like in tennis!

at the same time...excerise is good for us in the long run!

Many of us rotate our knees, some for decades....is this good or NOT? ....depends on who you are talking too? ...many doctors do not know the best answers.

If done correctly and NOT is huge amounts? ...OK ...over do it? ...UM?

Each person will have to listen to their own bodies....and hopefully will make the right judgements of HOW MUCH!
Trust your intincts on this! .............Aloha
 

HelloKitty

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Thoughts, anyone? Examples, suggestions, etc? Please jump in.

I think it's very important the wise hand of the instructor to avoid overexercising, injuries easily avoidable, etc, because many times people begin a martial art kicking hard with bad technique, or they don't stop when their muscles are tight, etc because they don't want to be embarrased in front of the other students (Have you noticed how many threads with "I'm embarrased in my class because of overweight/flat foot/age/gender/etc" there are in other subforums here?)

For example, I started taekwondo when I was 14. When I was 17 I had a serious injury in my left leg. I didn't go to the doctor and continued half-training because it was very common my intructor or the high ranked students did it and the situation was embarrasing. I was in pain, I wasn't able to walk very good either and the typical medicines weren't working so I finally visited a doctor. I had an injurie related to adducteur muscle area (also tendon, etc), but after a couple of months and feeling better because of the therapy I quit my treatment and tried to come back to my dojang. But obviously the pain came back and I had to stop undefinitely.

I tried to come back like two or three times during the following years but the leg really hurt at the second or third class! Only now (like 10 years later), I decided to try the last time and fortunately I was able to train again. I can't believe I lose such a long time for being irresponsible with my health! So, I learnt in the hard way how important is the subject you are pointing here.
 

meth18au

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One need not embrace either mediocrity nor insanity.


Wise words sir. I should heed this advice myself. I've definitely been at a stage in my life over the past few years where I live to train. Yet really I don't need to? I don't compete yet- but I train like I am. Is this going to be detrimental to my health in the future? Is it worth fulfilling my dream to compete? Time will tell....

I'd have to agree with everyone so far. Training high intensity consistently is not friendly to the body. I think it is important to know when to rest, and when to go through lower intensity phases.
 
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