Heel up vs heel down.

[Ironbear24]

I am mostly talking about the karate reverse punch here. In American kenpo it was often heel up, since I been in this other system of karate it is all about heel down.

In my opinion I don't really notice more or less power but I feel more stable with heel down. Sometimes when throwing this punch people "run into it" and you end up going backward while they get hit hard.

I notice with heel down this doesn't really happen, however with heel and the weigh being more on the ball of the foot I feel more mobile and quick. (As quick as a 200 pound guy can be of course).

Have any of you been taught both ways and if you have which do you prefer?

 

[Headhunter]

Don't know what kenpo you were learning but every place I've been in for kenpo is always heel down

 

[Ironbear24]

EPak American kenpo.

 

[donald1]

I cant speak for kenpo but in karate its preferred heel down. When im practing goju ryu the only time i can think when heel is up is when in cat stance

 

[Headhunter]

EPak American kenpo.

Well then I hate to say this your instructor doesn't that seem to really know his stuff since in American kenpo it's always been heel down it's even said so in ed parkers book and if you read lee wedlakes book lessons with ed Parker. Parker always taught it heel down

 

[Dirty Dog]

The way we generate power, the heel should be down. If you're raising it, it generally means you're too far away from your target. This weakens your base, which is why you're being knocked backwards. And whether you notice it or not, it's robbing you of power. Moving backwards means there's kinetic energy NOT being delivered to your target.

 

[Flying Crane]

There is a lot of variety in the various kenpo lineages, there is no one single "EPAK" system. According to some, EPAK does not really exist, as it was a term Mr. Parker never used, but came into being after his death. I personally prefer to refer to lineages based on the downstream of his first generation students, or others who have become prominent in kenpo.

The heel up or down issue is debated between lineages. There is no single school of thought. I don't like the heel up; in my history in the Tracy lineage, we did heel down.

In my history in the Chinese methods, it is all about heel down. It isn't just stability. When you plant that heel you can push your back foot into the ground and drive a stronger torso rotation and make that punch stronger. When you need to be mobile, then you step and run and be mobile. When you need to land a punch, you want to be rooted and powerful. You apply what you need, when you need it.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

A friend of mine posted this on his facebook page. Not sure how good the study is but it is an interesting read.

Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage

 

[Ironbear24]

Well then I hate to say this your instructor doesn't that seem to really know his stuff since in American kenpo it's always been heel down it's even said so in ed parkers book and if you read lee wedlakes book lessons with ed Parker. Parker always taught it heel down

We won lots of competitions so I don't think it is the worst thing ever or anything like that, but I won't argue with you that it wasn't wrong.

Judging by the responses here it was a mistake to raise my heel.

 

[Ironbear24]

There is a lot of variety in the various kenpo lineages, there is no one single "EPAK" system. According to some, EPAK does not really exist, as it was a term Mr. Parker never used, but came into being after his death. I personally prefer to refer to lineages based on the downstream of his first generation students, or others who have become prominent in kenpo.

The heel up or down issue is debated between lineages. There is no single school of thought. I don't like the heel up; in my history in the Tracy lineage, we did heel down.

In my history in the Chinese methods, it is all about heel down. It isn't just stability. When you plant that heel you can push your back foot into the ground and drive a stronger torso rotation and make that punch stronger. When you need to be mobile, then you step and run and be mobile. When you need to land a punch, you want to be rooted and powerful. You apply what you need, when you need it.

Sifu Delgado. He was taught by sigung labounty.

 

[Ironbear24]

I cant speak for kenpo but in karate its preferred heel down. When im practing goju ryu the only time i can think when heel is up is when in cat stance

The front heel is up or the back heel? For us we do front heel up back heel down.

 

[Flying Crane]

The front heel is up or the back heel? For us we do front heel up back heel down.

For a reverse punch? FRONT heel up??? Without actually having seen what you are talking about, I will say that sounds like a big problem to me. I had just assumed you were talking about the rear heel up. I am honestly completely taken by surprise here. That seems almost negligent.

 

[Ironbear24]

For a reverse punch? FRONT heel up??? Without actually having seen what you are talking about, I will say that sounds like a big problem to me. I had just assumed you were talking about the rear heel up. I am honestly completely taken by surprise here. That seems almost negligent.

I was asking about the cat stance in that post.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am mostly talking about the karate reverse punch here. In American kenpo it was often heel up, since I been in this other system of karate it is all about heel down.

In my opinion I don't really notice more or less power but I feel more stable with heel down. Sometimes when throwing this punch people "run into it" and you end up going backward while they get hit hard.

I notice with heel down this doesn't really happen, however with heel and the weigh being more on the ball of the foot I feel more mobile and quick. (As quick as a 200 pound guy can be of course).

Have any of you been taught both ways and if you have which do you prefer?

We tend to like the heel down, for stability. That's true in nearly all our stances, and we sometimes use that (as you described) to create a feeling of a "wall" people can run into as we finish a technique. Mind you, that's at what I call "picture frames" - those points in a technique where you'd take a photo. In transition, we will sometimes use heels-up (even for strikes, if they happen in transition) for the higher mobility.

 

[Flying Crane]

I was asking about the cat stance in that post.

Got it. Sheesh, the images in my head...

 

[Flying Crane]

A friend of mine posted this on his facebook page. Not sure how good the study is but it is an interesting read.

Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage

Well, without having read the entire study and their parameters and controls and whatnot, I will say that limb proportion for a modern human is such that being on all fours is awkward for most activities, which would include striking downward. Looks to me like the photos show people down on their knees, which is an awkward position to be in for many activities. Great apes have a different limb proportion so they are still on their feet and not down on their knees when knuckle-walking, and being in that posture is MUCH less awkward for them than for humans. Early human ancestors would have had different limb proportions from modern humans as well, so I'm not sure how this theory would hold up, in terms of human evolution. Early human ancestors and apes of any kind, do not walk around on their knees. Whatever their limb proportions, and whether they are bipedal or quadrupedal, they are on their feet, not their knees. People did not evolve from moving on their knees to moving on their feet. So conducting the study with people doing activities while on their knees strikes me as very problematic for the study.

 

[marques]

In Muay Thai the rear leg is heel up, by default.
In my self-defence system, the weight was 'never' on the heels even if they look touching the ground.
But I think I would rather use heel down for a reverse punch (or any other strike in a sideways position).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

which do you prefer?

The question should not be "which" but "why".

1. Heel down - your base is bigger and you are more stable.
2. Heel up - your back foot is ready to slide forward and you have better mobility.

One's PRO is the others' CON. When your opponent is moving back and you try to punch him, whether your back heel should be up or down depends on the distance between you and your opponent. May be you just lift your back heel up and slide forward for 3 inch, your punch can land on your opponent. If you don't, your punch may just miss that 3 inches.

 

[Headhunter]

Sifu Delgado. He was taught by sigung labounty.

That's another point. Sifu and sigung? Those are not words used by American kenpo. In kenpo the instructors are called mr or miss.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well then I hate to say this your instructor doesn't that seem to really know his stuff since in American kenpo it's always been heel down it's even said so in ed parkers book and if you read lee wedlakes book lessons with ed Parker. Parker always taught it heel down

It doesn't matter if he the guy is backing up, Mr. Kenpo Expert.