Question on basic pivot and punch

[Badhabits]

Starting in a back stance, pivoting into a front stance with reverse punch, do you-
Pivot on the ball of the foot and only move your weight forward once your heel is touching ground, in effect pushing the ground with the heel?
Or
Begin shifting your weight forward as you pivot on the ball of the foot, pushing the ground with the ball of the foot and just make sure the heel is planted in time before your fist contacts the target?
Does it matter as long as the heel is planted before the fist lands ensuring a stable brace for impact?
* This isn't the same question as the old heel up or heel down debate*

 

[geezer]

Starting in a back stance, pivoting into a front stance with reverse punch, do you-
Pivot on the ball of the foot and only move your weight forward once your heel is touching ground, in effect pushing the ground with the heel?
Or
Begin shifting your weight forward as you pivot on the ball of the foot, pushing the ground with the ball of the foot and just make sure the heel is planted in time before your fist contacts the target?
Does it matter as long as the heel is planted before the fist lands ensuring a stable brace for impact?
* This isn't the same question as the old heel up or heel down debate*

I just read this, posted here in the "General Martial Arts" sub-forum, but didn't see any system or style specified. Yet, your description of shifting from a back stance (zenkutsu dachi) to a front stance (kokutsu dachi) implies something like Karate (or TKD, Kemp, etc.) In neither of the two striking arts I train, do we use anything exactly like that.

So are you asking how we punch in whatever we do, or are you asking how it is best to punch in a particular martial art?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Pivot on the ball of the foot and only move your weight forward once your heel is touching ground, in effect pushing the ground with the heel?
Or
Begin shifting your weight forward as you pivot on the ball of the foot, pushing the ground with the ball of the foot

This may be a matter of personal preference, but I go with the second one. I want to move forward ASAP. The heel being on the ground is not a big thing with me. The knee, calf and ankle can provide enough spring for me to generate enough spring to give the momentum needed.

It doesn't hurt to have the heel on the ground on contact with the opponent, but, again, I get enough power without it. I suspect Shotokan, TKD and maybe shito ryu have other ideas in the interest of form along with power.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the old heel up or heel down debate*

When you are a

- beginner, it's wrong if you punch with back foot moving (static punch).
- non-beginner, it's wrong if you punch without back foot moving (dynamic punch).

Example of dynamic punch:

 

[geezer]

This may be a matter of personal preference, but I go with the second one. I want to move forward ASAP. The heel being on the ground is not a big thing with me. The knee, calf and ankle can provide enough spring for me to generate enough spring to give the momentum needed.

It doesn't hurt to have the heel on the ground on contact with the opponent, but, again, I get enough power without it. I suspect Shotokan, TKD and maybe shito ryu have other ideas in the interest of form along with power.

I practice Wing Chun and Latosa Escrima.

The WC I was taught never uses anything like a Karate front stance, and we do a drag-step forward maintaining most of our weight on the back foot with the heels down. The body power comes from synchronizing the short, sharp forward movement of the body with the punch, releasing power on impact. However, body weight is not shifted onto the lead leg. Torque, in our turning stance is also very important in transferring power, ....when a turn is called for.

Here's a videoclip from a practitioner whose punching power I can personally attest to:

Latosa Escrima, by contrast, uses forward weight drop and torque very much like a good western boxer. The rear heel always comes up, and this adds to the dynamic transfer of power. The Karate ideal of a flat rear foot seems way too static and restraining to me. But in my experience, some people can take what may to me seems like an odd position, and still do incredible things. My first encounter with good Wing Chun was like that. Very surprising.

Old video of GM Rene (RIP) in a seminar showing use of body and torque in his Escrima:

 

[geezer]

I practice Wing Chun and Latosa Escrima.

The WC I was taught never uses anything like a Karate front stance, and we do a drag-step forward maintaining most of our weight on the back foot with the heels down. The body power comes from synchronizing the short, sharp forward movement of the body with the punch, releasing power on impact. However, body weight is not shifted onto the lead leg. Torque, in our turning stance is also very important in transferring power, ....when a turn is called for.

Here's a videoclip from a practitioner whose punching power I can personally attest to:

Latosa Escrima, by contrast, uses forward weight drop and torque very much like a good western boxer. The rear heel always comes up, and this adds to the dynamic transfer of power. The Karate ideal of a flat rear foot seems way too static and restraining to me. But in my experience, some people can take what may to me seems like an odd position, and still do incredible things. My first encounter with good Wing Chun was like that. Very surprising.

Old video of GM Rene (RIP) in a seminar showing use of body and torque in his Escrima:

 

[geezer]

Just an afterthought. I personally have become really comfortable switching between the back-weighting power generation used in my Wing Chun background and the forward-weighted system of the "Filipino Boxing" taught by Rene Latosa. For me they work naturally, complementing each other like yin and yang. Emin must have felt the same way since he practiced and taught both systems for many years. Of course he was an extraordinarily gifted athlete.

On the other hand some my students had a hell of a time if they did both. Even some who had way more athletic ability than I ever did. Go figure!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I personally have become really comfortable switching between the back-weighting power generation used in my Wing Chun background and the forward-weighted system of the "Filipino Boxing" taught by Rene Latosa.

CMA system such as the Xing Yi system uses the back-weight (3-7 stance). The 7-star praying mantis uses the front-weight (monkey stance). IMO, both stances have it's places. The front-weight has more reach than the back-weight. The back-weight is easier to escape opponent's foot sweep.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I practice Wing Chun and Latosa Escrima.

The WC I was taught never uses anything like a Karate front stance, and we do a drag-step forward maintaining most of our weight on the back foot with the heels down. The body power comes from synchronizing the short, sharp forward movement of the body with the punch, releasing power on impact. However, body weight is not shifted onto the lead leg. Torque, in our turning stance is also very important in transferring power, ....when a turn is called for.

Here's a videoclip from a practitioner whose punching power I can personally attest to:

Latosa Escrima, by contrast, uses forward weight drop and torque very much like a good western boxer. The rear heel always comes up, and this adds to the dynamic transfer of power. The Karate ideal of a flat rear foot seems way too static and restraining to me. But in my experience, some people can take what may to me seems like an odd position, and still do incredible things. My first encounter with good Wing Chun was like that. Very surprising.

Old video of GM Rene (RIP) in a seminar showing use of body and torque in his Escrima:

Both. All that, alternating as needed.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Just an afterthought. I personally have become really comfortable switching between the back-weighting power generation used in my Wing Chun background and the forward-weighted system of the "Filipino Boxing" taught by Rene Latosa. For me they work naturally, complementing each other like yin and yang. Emin must have felt the same way since he practiced and taught both systems for many years. Of course he was an extraordinarily gifted athlete.

On the other hand some my students had a hell of a time if they did both. Even some who had way more athletic ability than I ever did. Go figure!

This.

 

[marvin8]

Starting in a back stance, pivoting into a front stance with reverse punch, do you-
Pivot on the ball of the foot and only move your weight forward once your heel is touching ground, in effect pushing the ground with the heel?

MMA method: Push off and lift back heel while pivoting onto the ball of foot. Rotate, transfer your weight to the front foot while landing reverse punch. Pushing off both feet, a down -> up movement (compress/release spring)...

https://imgur.com/XSP7B8R

Or

Begin shifting your weight forward as you pivot on the ball of the foot, pushing the ground with the ball of the foot and just make sure the heel is planted in time before your fist contacts the target?
Does it matter as long as the heel is planted before the fist lands ensuring a stable brace for impact?
* This isn't the same question as the old heel up or heel down debate*

Planting heel before fist lands can have the following cons:

1. less power: rotation, weight transfer
2. less defense: head movement, exit a bad position
3. less offense: after punch lands, transfer weight to back foot while throwing a hook.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Starting in a back stance, pivoting into a front stance with reverse punch, do you-
Pivot on the ball of the foot and only move your weight forward once your heel is touching ground, in effect pushing the ground with the heel?

If you transfer from horse stance into bow-arrow stance, since the bow-arrow stance is wider than the horse stance, you can do in 2 different ways.

- Pivot your front foot on the heel and pivot your back foot on your ball (static punch).
- Hop into your front foot and slide your back foot (dynamic punch).

 

[Badhabits]

Thanks for the replies y'all. I pretty much practice all the above, karate uses all the above, but it's generally taught at later stages . I didn't specify karate kihon, figured some other styles may practice transitioning from a back stance to front stance punching as you do so, so didn't want to exclude good info from those sources. I tend to favor heel up punching when mobile, heel down when "attached" to the other person, but this question is more about just plain old basic kihon.
So in karate kihon, when we transition from back to front stance, the rear foot pivots beginning the whole movement up the body. When the fist lands the rear heel should be planted to provide a line from the fist to ground through the heel providing a brace against the ground.
Some pivot the foot, plant the heel and then push weight forward off the heel.
Others like ishinninryuronin begin pushing forward off the ball of the foot. I favor this method for speed. It takes an extra second to pivot, plant heel, then push forward. Years of trying to pivot, plant then push and it's still slow for me. Glad I'm not alone in this.
So form aside, is there any mechanical benefit to pushing off the heel instead of the ball of the foot? Excluding the end of the movement, which would be when the fist lands. Specifically interested in the very first part, the pivot and beginning of weight transfer.

 

[Badhabits]

It's a pretty basic question but it's been driving me nuts recently.

 

[marvin8]

MMA method: Push off and lift back heel while pivoting onto the ball of foot. Rotate, transfer your weight to the front foot while landing reverse punch. Pushing off both feet, a down -> up movement (compress/release spring)...

https://imgur.com/XSP7B8R

Planting heel before fist lands can have the following cons:

1. less power: rotation, weight transfer
2. less defense: head movement, exit a bad position
3. less offense: after punch lands, transfer weight to back foot while throwing a hook.

In reply to this and the Kata topic, from last night's fights:

In Sylve vs Bahdi, note that Sylve steps with jab while Bahdi shifts his weight without stepping KOing Sylve and uses sen no sen. Relying on stepping to generate power can be a tell and countered, principle economy of movement.

reverse punch -> reverse punch -> lead hook

https://imgur.com/7pEzgr5

In Paul vs Perry, Paul moves head off centerline KDing Perry, while Perry doesn't move his head Also, Paul uses circular movement and the strategy lure, listen, control, dissolve, attack and sen sen no sen. That seems to be missing from kata, although it may not be necessary.

https://imgur.com/gmecGtj

 

[skribs]

There are different ways to generate power. I think it's important for beginners to have a single way of doing so, so they can build muscle memory with a good technique. But I think as you get more advanced it becomes more important to know the different ways of doing so, and what the advantages and disadvantages are.

Whether we're talking heel up or heel down, or whether it's plant first or plant during, I think you're going to get power generation and stability. There might be slight differences in the kinetic energy, momentum, and speed of each variant, I don't think it's going to make a huge difference.

I think at this point it kind of goes into the same territory as "9mm vs. .45" discussions in gun forums. Yeah, 9mm had more capacity and less recoil than the .45. But the .45 usually has enough and is fast enough. Yeah, the .45 is more powerful than the 9, but both pale in comparison to what you can get in bigger guns. Ultimately there isn't much difference, but people argue about it endlessly.

As long as you have proper linkage between the joints, I think you're going to have a fine punch either way.

 

[Fungus]

is there any mechanical benefit to pushing off the heel instead of the ball of the foot? Excluding the end of the movement, which would be when the fist lands. Specifically interested in the very first part, the pivot and beginning of weight transfer.

What comes to my mind, is what sort of purpose the punch has. If your opponent is perhaps coming at you, and you move forward to fire a stop punch. Then the heel is much more solid support against backforce, than the ball of the foot. I didn't analyze this alot but I think if the opponent is "pushing you" or if you are "pushing the opponent" different methods may be optimal?