Having Trouble Rooting

Nyrotic

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Ok, so I have this problem. I've been doing Wing Chun for just over a year now, and I STILL seem to have problems rooting when under the slightest pressure, including getting mentally distracted while doing so. For rooting, I practice the 8 Pieces of Brocade as well as 5 standing exercises that my Sifu taught me. During those exercises, I'm pretty sure I'm starting to feel my root, however, when I try to have someone push me over while in YJKYM it's very difficult for me to root then and I fall over embarassingly fast. I know things like this take time, but a year already?

Please help guys, what are some things that I can do to help root on the fly so to speak? I've started practicing the first 3 forms more slowly and with more focus on the distribution of weight, relaxing the body and trying to develop that rooted or sinking feeling to the ground. It still feels like I'm getting nowhere with it, though that may just be because I've only started doing it that way.

I've already asked my Sifu as well.
 

geezer

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...During those exercises, I'm pretty sure I'm starting to feel my root...

Well stop that right now!!! Wash your hands and get back to practicing Wing Chun. Ha!


Seriously though, I'm the last person to give advice on this...since I have also struggled with maintaining a strong "rooted" stance. My Sifu was more rooted on one leg than any of us were on two! I finally concluded that, beyond developing a good sound "structure", you need to focus more on yielding than resisting. If you can yield and bend or turn effortlessly, you can absorb or deflect the force thrown at you. There is a physical limit to how strong anyone can be if they are rigid. By yielding, absorbing and deflecting, the limit is determined only by your level of skill.

OK, enough of me pretending to know anything. Now what's "eight pieces of brocade"?
 

dungeonworks

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Ok, so I have this problem. I've been doing Wing Chun for just over a year now, and I STILL seem to have problems rooting when under the slightest pressure, including getting mentally distracted while doing so. For rooting, I practice the 8 Pieces of Brocade as well as 5 standing exercises that my Sifu taught me. During those exercises, I'm pretty sure I'm starting to feel my root, however, when I try to have someone push me over while in YJKYM it's very difficult for me to root then and I fall over embarassingly fast. I know things like this take time, but a year already?

Please help guys, what are some things that I can do to help root on the fly so to speak? I've started practicing the first 3 forms more slowly and with more focus on the distribution of weight, relaxing the body and trying to develop that rooted or sinking feeling to the ground. It still feels like I'm getting nowhere with it, though that may just be because I've only started doing it that way.

I've already asked my Sifu as well.

You're just over a year in and already know the first three forms??? I been in almost 8 months now and am still working Siu Lim Tao. I know the form but there is much much more to it than just the movements. I am wondering if you are being brought along too fast?

I know what you mean about getting frustrated. I am plateauing/stuck in the mud a bit myself and getting flustered with my studies. It is soooo damn different than what I know and have done before...to the point I wonder if I should go to something more familiar rather than change altogether.
 

Xue Sheng

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1 Form of Root training

Stand in Wuji
Relax and focus on the Lower Dan tian
The focus on your Yong Quan Points on your right and left feet
Then try and think of the energy or Qi growing out of your Yong Quan Points like roots of a tree.

This takes awhile by the way

After you feel you have developed your root there get 2 bricks and stand on them widest side first. After you feel you root is strong stand the briks on thier side and after you feel you have a strong root here stand the bricks on end and do the same thing.

This is not quick, it takes time and like ALL root training you cannot rush it.

Another is to simply train Zhan Zhuang much like they do in Yiquan.
 

mook jong man

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Do me a favour please guys if you ever come to Australia don't use the term " rooting " because here it has a sexual connotation lol .

In regards to Nyrotic's problem i think you should stop practicing the other forms and concentrate soley on sil lum tao , you could also practice your pivoting in order to find your center.

For eg pivot slowly from side to side with your eyes closed , initiating the movement from your waist 45 degrees to the left and then 45 degrees to the right.

As Geezer said there is a limit to how much pressure your stance can take , when my toes start to lift i know its time to start pivoting baby. The good news is as your skill level increases so does the amount of force that you can absorb down into your stance .

If you have started double sticking hands one exercise you can do is to get your partner to really lean in on you , and i mean really lean in on you, at the very least this will make you sink down and after this type of training you gradually be able to absorb more and more force down to your feet.

ps Dungeonworks don't you dare give up man , compare your skill level to when you first walked into the joint , compare your speed ,force and reflex to the the people who have just started . You have progressed you just can't see it .
 
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Nyrotic

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Well stop that right now!!! Wash your hands and get back to practicing Wing Chun. Ha!


Seriously though, I'm the last person to give advice on this...since I have also struggled with maintaining a strong "rooted" stance. My Sifu was more rooted on one leg than any of us were on two! I finally concluded that, beyond developing a good sound "structure", you need to focus more on yielding than resisting. If you can yield and bend or turn effortlessly, you can absorb or deflect the force thrown at you. There is a physical limit to how strong anyone can be if they are rigid. By yielding, absorbing and deflecting, the limit is determined only by your level of skill.

OK, enough of me pretending to know anything. Now what's "eight pieces of brocade"?

Haha, the first part made me laugh. Anyways. I've had that experience too, just last weekend actually when I brought up rooting to my Sifu. He stood on one leg and had me push him with as much force as I could muster and at any random interval I so chose. It was truly frustrating, yet enlightening. Apart from that, I've already got a habit of deflecting rather than blocking, though maybe not always in the traditional Wing Chun sense since I've trained that way since my Shaolin-do days.

The 8 Pieces of Brocade are Qi Gong exercises that my Sifu said would help me develop my root. On a purely physical level, they're breathing exercises synchronized with certain body movements that can help relax the mind and teach one to control the breath among other things.

You're just over a year in and already know the first three forms??? I been in almost 8 months now and am still working Siu Lim Tao. I know the form but there is much much more to it than just the movements. I am wondering if you are being brought along too fast?

I know what you mean about getting frustrated. I am plateauing/stuck in the mud a bit myself and getting flustered with my studies. It is soooo damn different than what I know and have done before...to the point I wonder if I should go to something more familiar rather than change altogether.

Really? Even at my pace I feel like I'm learning rather slowly. I'll have to check with my Sifu to see how much deeper into the forms we'll be going. He's demonstrated his abilities to me before so I know there's more to him than meets the eye, however if I'll ever go much deeper into the forms than what I've already done......I shall be weary.

However, maybe we already have gone over the finer points of the forms that you mentioned and I'm just being paranoid.

1 Form of Root training

Stand in Wuji
Relax and focus on the Lower Dan tian
The focus on your Yong Quan Points on your right and left feet
Then try and think of the energy or Qi growing out of your Yong Quan Points like roots of a tree.

This takes awhile by the way

After you feel you have developed your root there get 2 bricks and stand on them widest side first. After you feel you root is strong stand the briks on thier side and after you feel you have a strong root here stand the bricks on end and do the same thing.

This is not quick, it takes time and like ALL root training you cannot rush it.

Another is to simply train Zhan Zhuang much like they do in Yiquan.

Thanks for the advice, but I have another question. What exactly does a strong root FEEL like? If I had to guess I'd say that's my biggest issue right now, not being able to feel the root whether it's there or not.

Do me a favour please guys if you ever come to Australia don't use the term " rooting " because here it has a sexual connotation lol .

In regards to Nyrotic's problem i think you should stop practicing the other forms and concentrate soley on sil lum tao , you could also practice your pivoting in order to find your center.

For eg pivot slowly from side to side with your eyes closed , initiating the movement from your waist 45 degrees to the left and then 45 degrees to the right.

As Geezer said there is a limit to how much pressure your stance can take , when my toes start to lift i know its time to start pivoting baby. The good news is as your skill level increases so does the amount of force that you can absorb down into your stance .

If you have started double sticking hands one exercise you can do is to get your partner to really lean in on you , and i mean really lean in on you, at the very least this will make you sink down and after this type of training you gradually be able to absorb more and more force down to your feet.

ps Dungeonworks don't you dare give up man , compare your skill level to when you first walked into the joint , compare your speed ,force and reflex to the the people who have just started . You have progressed you just can't see it .

Thanks for the advice! I'm already starting to work SNT more times a day now.
 

matsu

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dungeon-
i am with u- 7 months in and i have not done last pt of first form yet. but i feel i really do understand what i am doing.-that is not to say i can perform it brillinatly but i do know what i,m supposed to be doing and how it should feel.
i got so wound up after some classes that i just dont get it!and my mate is worse./
but do not give in! as mook so wisely put compare yourslef to you as a rank beginner- worlds apart altho it dont feel like it most days!

geezer and mook- thank you for the comments and advice i too will work on those.

nyrotic- i think poss you are speeding ahead or being alolowed to move on to new techniques/froms without getting the previous one down pat first-not flaming you just obseriving that might be why you are struggling now with certain aspects.
muscle memory takes a loooooooooooong time to become the normal reaction of the body

matsu
 

mook jong man

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Don't you blokes worry you are going at the right pace and you are building a solid foundation .

I will tell you a story from the school i belonged to , a couple of years before i left they started up this program where people could learn to be a Wing Chun instructor as a full time career , it was gov accredited and everthing .

It was accellerated learning , they would be there all day like it was a college, these people became first level instructors in one year , an achievement that took me about 5 years .

Well i can tell you i did chi sao with these people and i could throw them around like rag dolls , it was like they were empty they had no force , no speed and no stance, i'm sure my students in grade 3 and 4 could also have thrown them around as well .

The bottom line is you have to have time to assimilate what you are being taught , a person with a good solid grounding in sil lum tao will always beat someone who has skimmed through and gone on to learn chum kiu and bil gee.
 

kidswarrior

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these people became first level instructors in one year , an achievement that took me about 5 years .

Well i can tell you i did chi sao with these people and i could throw them around like rag dolls , it was like they were empty they had no force , no speed and no stance, i'm sure my students in grade 3 and 4 could also have thrown them around as well .

The bottom line is you have to have time....
I remember very well when I first started how embarrassing it was to seem to have no root. My instructor could tap me from the front or back just the slightest amount, and I was windmilling for balance. :uhyeah: So, I just let it go and didn't even try to consciously work on it (although if I were going to, Xue Sheng has come great advice). Now I hope this encourages you rather than discourages, but the next time I really thought about it was after 12 years of training, and people began commenting on how hard it was to move me...and also my *gorilla hands*. Took me completely by surprise. Not saying it takes that long, but I think it's just a progressive thing, and the longer we work at the art, the stronger these fundamentals become.
 

Xue Sheng

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Thanks for the advice, but I have another question. What exactly does a strong root FEEL like? If I had to guess I'd say that's my biggest issue right now, not being able to feel the root whether it's there or not.

This is likely not the answer you are looking for but the only way to know that is to train it. But understand that first to train root in this way takes time. All I can say (and this may just be me) is back when I trained this when I was finished with root training for the day my feet felt heavy for a bit. But then you also need to train your form to figure out how this type of training transfers and in your form you need to be very careful to not be double weighted, meaning hard to move. This type pt training of the rooting (Apologies to those from Australia) I learned form Yang Jwing Ming and I do believe you can find it in some of his books, possibly the one on White Crane.

Don't you blokes worry you are going at the right pace and you are building a solid foundation .

I will tell you a story from the school i belonged to , a couple of years before i left they started up this program where people could learn to be a Wing Chun instructor as a full time career , it was gov accredited and everthing .

It was accellerated learning , they would be there all day like it was a college, these people became first level instructors in one year , an achievement that took me about 5 years .

Well i can tell you i did chi sao with these people and i could throw them around like rag dolls , it was like they were empty they had no force , no speed and no stance, i'm sure my students in grade 3 and 4 could also have thrown them around as well .

The bottom line is you have to have time to assimilate what you are being taught , a person with a good solid grounding in sil lum tao will always beat someone who has skimmed through and gone on to learn chum kiu and bil gee.

Agreed, it all takes time and if you just work on Sil Lum Tao eventually you will develop your root.


I remember very well when I first started how embarrassing it was to seem to have no root. My instructor could tap me from the front or back just the slightest amount, and I was windmilling for balance. So, I just let it go and didn't even try to consciously work on it….

Now I hope this encourages you rather than discourages, but the next time I really thought about it was after 12 years of training, and people began commenting on how hard it was to move me...and also my *gorilla hands*. Took me completely by surprise. Not saying it takes that long, but I think it's just a progressive thing, and the longer we work at the art, the stronger these fundamentals become.


Absolutely, even in the training I talked about “RELAXATION” is the key and not worrying about it is, IMO, the best way to do that. I cannot tell you how many times I got so incredibly frustrated trying to do something that after I stopped worrying about it I eventually discovered I got it.

It will come, just enjoy the training.
 

naneek

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dont give up dungeonworks sometimes even when u dont feel that u are progressing u really are, hang in there man! i been training for almost 2 years now have learnt the first form but only work on improving that and some basic chi sau when i am ready to do more then sifu will let me know but slt is very deep and contains so much (including rooting)to work on that it never gets old u gotta love it!
 

dungeonworks

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dont give up dungeonworks sometimes even when u dont feel that u are progressing u really are, hang in there man! i been training for almost 2 years now have learnt the first form but only work on improving that and some basic chi sau when i am ready to do more then sifu will let me know but slt is very deep and contains so much (including rooting)to work on that it never gets old u gotta love it!

I ain't quitting, just illustrating how different the two are and my frustration in changing.
 

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