Twin Fist
Grandmaster
I have been polite and I still get dinged. Since clearly no one is allowed anti olympic opinions anymore, i bid this forum good day.
Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?
- Thread starter Mr. President
- Start date
Don't leave!!!!
While it's clear that our opinions on the matter are somewhat different, your posts in this thread have been essential in moving to discussion forward and forcing both you and those of us who do not agree with you to fully explore and justify our positions.
I can certainly see and appreciate that you have made an effort to respond to my posts here in a full and polite way, so thank you for that.
How people react to you depends on whether they read what you actually write e.g. 'and that is where you are wrong', or they can get past that and read 'and that is where our opinions differ'. As Ricky Gervais says, "You can have your own opinions, but you can't have your own facts."
I would encourage those people who disagree with you to see past any dryness/sarcasm, history, or perceived confrontational style issues and respond to your underlying points, which are certainly valid and need to be addressed as a part of the discussion process. I agree with Gorilla; don't go, this has been the most interesting thread in ages up to now and it needs your counterpoint to feed constructive discussion.
OK, let's assume for now that I agree with you on the point that if Olympic sparring is what people see, then that will lead them to adopt the fully formed opinion that that is all TKD is. I'm not sure that's true, but let's assume for now. Even fully formed opinion can be changed if you interact with that person in the right way.
If people have seen something on TV, be it Olympic sparring, Power Rangers, Human Weapon or whatever, and that's formed their view of the art, then their view is going to be skewed and somewhat inaccurate.
All of us, every practitioner of every breed, brand and offshoot of Taekwondo everywhere, acts as an ambassador for our art.
It's our job as ambassadors to give those people enough information to form a fuller picture. Now I'm not saying that we need to go around like some kind of fanatic trying to convert everyone to our way of thinking, but giving people the information and communicating it clearly in a way that will influence their opinion is key.
In my experience, most people don't look further than the information that is already available to them when forming the embryo of an opinion, BUT, inwardly they know they haven't done their homework, and that opinion forming is not yet complete. In that situation, I find that people are open to receiving more information and are willing to alter their opinion and perception based on the new information if it is presented in the right way.
This is evident when you ask people 1 year into their training 'So, is Taekwondo what you expected it to be when you walked in the door of this place?'. In my experience, the answer to this question is 'No, there is much more to it than I realised', regardless of whether that person had seen Olympic sparring or knew nothing at all when they joined. Who knew they would be learning to deal with being attacked while seated, for example.
For the reasons above, it's important to think about how we present ourselves and communicate our ideas on this public forum. The information here, and how we communicate it will go towards people forming opinion of the art of TKD. When we express ourselves less than politely, and we backbite and *****, guess what an outsider reading the thread will think of TKD?
We, as ambassadors for our art, exert way more influence over public opinion than televised sport coverage ever could. We have the ability not just to give people information, but to present it in such a way that it changes their opinion. If we want people to have a positive opinion of our art, that starts right here at home.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
Honestly, I think the one thing that has "harmed" taekwondo's reputation, especially with the "black belt is supposed to mean..." crowd, is movement to market Taekwondo to children. I so not mean to say that I'm against kids in Taekwondo. When I operated a school in the US my student body was probably 85-90% children, and pretty much every other school I can think of was about the same. Taekwondo instructors got very good at marketing their product as something good for kids to do. As a result, I imagine lots of people think of Taekwondo as a kids activity. Regardless of whether or not the kids have black belts or not, being thought of as something primarily for kids probably hurts taekwondo's reputation, at least with a certain crowd.
I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid....I have been posting on the BBS for almost 4 years....I have never said a bad thing about any art!!!!All the professional Martial Artists that I meet have no problem with Sport Tkd...I tend to be a positive person...positive people attract positive people....Internet Curmugeon attracts Internet Curmugeon!
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I assume by "internet curmugeon" you mean people who dont share your point of view
I assume by "internet curmugeon" you mean people who dont share your point of view
No.....Come on Ralph.....we don't always agree but when I think of "internet Curmugeon" it's not you!!!!
I think what were seeing here is a failure of text.
Its very very hard to speak in favor of or against something without intentionally or otherwise putting down the alternative. And when you read text, it can lack context.
For example:
"I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid...."
For which i could call you a curmugeon for thinking that your idea that young people are the future leaders of the art. I could say that young people are just practitioners wholl probably just teach what they were taught either exactly, or with their own flavor blended in. Then theyll all be either masters of their art of masters of different arts they make out of it assuming they keep training and want to teach instead of just keep learning, possibly going by the same name. But then what i just said can be read as contradicting you, even though all i did is say exactly what you just said in a different way.
Text is very fickle. And right now im seeing a minor dispute about nothing (as in, youre not discussing the effect kids have, your just discussing training kids).
Yes, children are the future leaders. So what about me? Do i have to train with children i could toss with one hand just because theyre the future leaders, or cant i train with folks my own size (bare with me, im getting to the point)? If 90% of the students are kids, i wont join the class because i dont want to train to overcome someone i could, as i said, throw with one hand. And if only 10% of, say, 50 students are adult males, then that offers 5 training partners whove probably done most of their learning with kids they could toss with one hand. So if every TKD dojang in town was 90% kids, id go look for something else. Whether a majority of kids is harming the art itself is debatable, but i dont doubt that there are alot of potential students who dont become students for similar reasons.
Its very very hard to speak in favor of or against something without intentionally or otherwise putting down the alternative. And when you read text, it can lack context.
For example:
"I think kids in the art from a young age will develop the future leaders of the art...not the Internet Curmdgeons that only see what they do as valid...."
For which i could call you a curmugeon for thinking that your idea that young people are the future leaders of the art. I could say that young people are just practitioners wholl probably just teach what they were taught either exactly, or with their own flavor blended in. Then theyll all be either masters of their art of masters of different arts they make out of it assuming they keep training and want to teach instead of just keep learning, possibly going by the same name. But then what i just said can be read as contradicting you, even though all i did is say exactly what you just said in a different way.
Text is very fickle. And right now im seeing a minor dispute about nothing (as in, youre not discussing the effect kids have, your just discussing training kids).
Yes, children are the future leaders. So what about me? Do i have to train with children i could toss with one hand just because theyre the future leaders, or cant i train with folks my own size (bare with me, im getting to the point)? If 90% of the students are kids, i wont join the class because i dont want to train to overcome someone i could, as i said, throw with one hand. And if only 10% of, say, 50 students are adult males, then that offers 5 training partners whove probably done most of their learning with kids they could toss with one hand. So if every TKD dojang in town was 90% kids, id go look for something else. Whether a majority of kids is harming the art itself is debatable, but i dont doubt that there are alot of potential students who dont become students for similar reasons.
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Bulltits. You've been an antagonistic, opinion spewing, button pushing, ***** stirring SOB and you know it. You push buttons of people who you know your comments will tweak and respond in ways guaranteed to gain attention. You're someone smart enough to be able to reply civilly but you can't be bothered to do so, preferring to just spew your opinion regardless of anyone elses. If you dropped the cutting crap you might find more people agree with you and find less red ink on your record. (I still out score you on full on suspensions dude)
So what if TKD is a bastardized version of Karate? So what if the guys left Korea as green belts and got a dan rank for each time zone they crossed before landing in LA? So what if half the schools in the US are more fixated on winning a tournament than teaching solid self defense? Who cares if some 6 yr old is rocking a 4th dan with a trophy the size of my ego? Who cares if it's WTF or Kukimunga or Run DMC TKD?
No, seriously, who the **** cares?
I don't. If I want to learn the art I'll find out all I can about it, compare my goals with who is teaching what, and connect accordingly. If I want to play sports and win shiny ****, I'll go find a quality sports focused school. If I want to kick *** on the streets, I'll find a school with a solid SD focus. And if I want to be a warrior and hear the laminations of my enemies women, I'll join the SEAL's and go shoot Afghans at the Old Folks Home on 6th and Maple.
Seriously dude, you're allowed your opinion, but don't act surprised when you express it crassly and piss people off. Just because you have an opinion doesn't make it right. Of course, some of those getting all pissy about what you spout need to grow a thicker skin. There's 1,000 arts out there, not everyone thinks your's is all that and a bag of ham. Personally, I think TKD isn't that great. All the schools I've seen are worried about trophies, and charging their students as much as they can as often as they can, and turn our mediocre fighters who wouldn't know what to do if I kicked them in the nuts because nuts isn't a fair target so they don't train for it. Just like the NHBUFC goobs who wouldn't know what to do when I brought the barbed wire bat in to the match. Sissy whined about 'rules' and **** and threatened to call the cops and please don't tell his mommy he pissed hisself.
Wait. Where was I? Oh yeah, spanking double hammy and telling off the Stalinites. Double Hammy might be an opinionated ***, but saying your sacred cow is a pig isn't bashing the cow when you can back it up with reasons that hold up. He does. So talk to your Avon lady and get some skin thickener, or put him on Ignore. Me too.
As to the question: Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?
No. Because to the average person on the street TKD IS one of 3 things. The same as the watered down, scaled back, limited sports version done in the Olympics, just another generic martial art term (karate, kung fu, tkd all = same thing), or not even a consideration. The only people who give a flying squrrel turd are the ones who know the difference and feel the need to argue about it.
Ok kids, back to the usual round and round and round. I have to go pop over to KenpoTalk and see if it's my turn to play with the big ban hammer.
Toodles! I'm sure I'll hear a few reports on this too, and I'm sure I know from who. Kisses.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
I think we agree more than we disagree. Glad to know Im not a curmugeon
I do so hate it, TLL, when you make me laugh as I try to formulate an in-thread 'nudge' to get you to behave yourself. From my personal point of view there is some truth in what you say but, as always seems to be the case, there is a problem in the way that you say it. The banner above the site entrance says "Friendly Martial Arts Discussion Forum" - let's try and keep it that way .
.I think we agree more than we disagree. Glad to know Im not a curmugeon
absolutely....but that whole KKW sucks thing might stay a bone of contention!!!!:fart:
andyjeffries
Senior Master
No way, it's the best post on martialtalk!
andyjeffries
Senior Master
I couldn't agree with this more. He's the only person on my Ignore list (and has been for ages). Now, if everyone could just stop feeding the troll I wouldn't ever see anything he's written again.
OK that was pretty cool!!!
My job is done! Increasing vocabularies one word at a time!Curmudgeon is one of my favorite words...it describes my favorite poster...who I will never put on ignore...Long live the Internet Curmudgeon!!!!!For what its worth, i didnt even know what that word meant before today
