Has olympic Taekwondo ruined the reputation of the art?

[Daniel Sullivan]

That Taekwondo fighters generally fight with their hands down, wear so many pads and don't have a clue how to defend a takedown (all in general).

The pad thing is what it is. Funny how nobody criticizes boxers for wearing gloves as thick as a hogu (same amount of padding; just relocated), leaning in (a dynamic that came about because of gloves; bare knuckle fighters kept their heads back), or lack of defense against kicks and take downs.

As for defending against takedowns, it may vary from school to school, but I suspect that in terms of the big picture, it probably isn't emphasized as much as it ought to be or in some cases at all. I am hesitant to make a blanket statement, as I have seen substantial variance in schools local to me in this area, but given that, I'd say that the majority of what I have seen in this area do not emphasize it.

Edit: At non TKD schools that I have trained or visited, defense against takedowns was not emphasized either. This includes two HKD schools, one karate school, and one Jinenkan Ninjitsu school. I suspect that boxing gyms do not touch at all on this element either.

RE hands down, most all of my TKD instructors had us spar in ways other than just WTF, and all of the one steps were taught with the guard up. In SD scenarios, we generally started off with our hands down because most of us don't go through our lives in a boxing guard. Having your hands up or your hands down has nothing to do with how prepared one is to defend themselves outside of a regulated sparring match, regardless of whose rules you use.

Of course there is a flip side. I've been at restaurants where UFC matches are on and while waiting at the bar for a table, I have heard guys comment about two dudes rolling on the floor and not throwing any punches, along with various off color remarks having to do with two sweaty guys rolling around on the floor grabbing at each other. The comments are as stupid and uninformed as many of the supposedly technical criticisms of taekwondo.

If someone really wants to find something to criticize in a martial art/fight sport, they will find it. I think that the huge popularity with kids and suburban parents coupled with black belts on young children is the biggest area where the integrity of taekwondo can be called into question. Not that childrens' classes or popularity with the parents is bad in and of itself, but it seems to be the area where the most compromises get made on the broadest level. It also is the area where such extra cost things as blackbelt, masters, and leadership clubs come into play, as adult students generally are disinterested in such things.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Interesting, I expected Taekwondo to be bigger in the US than it's over here. Due to the Lopez family and their Olympic story.

I mean, both countries are basically the countries where Taekwondo started outside of Korea. Both countries held the first Taekwondo World Championships outside of Korea. Both countries already won silver medals in the very first World Championship and were very successful in the early years with Germany even having world champions in the late 70s.


Since there's clubs nearly everywhere in Germany, Taekwondo's featured in local press all the time though. So people are aware of Taekwondo's existence, yet hardly anybody knows much about it.


Btw, it was cool to see USAT's new president as a referee at the German Open!


I remember when I was in Manchester and some Iranian guy saw my Hogu he immediately asked me if I did Taekwondo. When I asked him if he does it as well he said no, but it's huge in Iran and people like Yousef Karami are known by everybody in Iran. Well, in Germany hardly anybody who's not active in Taekwondo knows the names of the German athletes.

In my experience, USA Taekwondo students who don't participate in WTF rules events don't know any of the "big" name American players. Perhaps a few might have heard of the Lopez family, but I don't think they would know much else, especially about past players/national team members like a Herb Perez or Juan Moreno. Depending on what part of the country you live in, Kukkiwon schools may have little to no presence. In those areas people know little to nothing about Olympic Taekwondo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my experience, USA Taekwondo students who don't participate in WTF rules events don't know any of the "big" name American players. Perhaps a few might have heard of the Lopez family, but I don't think they would know much else, especially about past players/national team members like a Herb Perez or Juan Moreno. Depending on what part of the country you live in, Kukkiwon schools may have little to no presence. In those areas people know little to nothing about Olympic Taekwondo.

It's very hard to have that kind of awareness of players when they get no exposure whatsoever. Olympic taekwondo isn't televised, there's no national coverage of the sport between the Olympics, and the big names are not prominently featured in any of their sponsors' promotional material outside of TKD Times, which most TKD students probably aren't reading anyway.

With the Olympics serving as the only major venue for non practitioners to see the sport, it is hard to build up the kind of recognition that other sports enjoy.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Having rules that promoted exciting matches where people didn't fall down every time they kicked would be a good thing, too, but I don't see that happening.

The falling down while scoring really detracts from the sport in my own opinion. It is probably the biggest single flaw in the matches themselves. Simply making a ruling that no point will be awarded if you fall down in the process would fix it too.

 

[Gorilla]

USAT Tkd only promotes the Lopez Clan and they do a very poor job at that!!!!

Most American TKD folks are fans of Aaron Cook and Servet Tazegul!!!!

Most people who know the sport in the USA understand that the Lopez Clan have served their interest at the cost of TKD in the USA...

 

[Gnarlie]

The falling down while scoring really detracts from the sport in my own opinion. It is probably the biggest single flaw in the matches themselves. Simply making a ruling that no point will be awarded if you fall down in the process would fix it too.

I think you're right, and I don't understand how the rules are interpreted in such a way that contestants can get away with it so often. The WTF rules are quite clear to me, look at the bits in bold below:

Invalidation of points: When a contestant performs a scoring attack that incorporated the use of prohibited acts, the
points scored shall be annulled.

Invalidation of a point: It is a rule that points gained through illegal techniques or actions cannot be valid. In this case, the referee mustindicate invalidation of the point by hand signal and declare the appropriate penalty.

(Guideline for officiating)
If the above situation occurs, the referee shall immediately declare “Kal-yeo” and shall first invalidate the point by hand signal, and thendeclare the appropriate penalty.

5 Prohibited acts
5.1 The following acts shall be classified as prohibited acts, and “Kyong-go” shall be declared.

1. 5.1.1 Crossing the Boundary Line

1. 5.1.2 Avoiding or delaying the match

1. 5.1.3 Falling down

1. 5.1.4 Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent

1. 5.1.5 Attacking below the waist

1. 5.1.6 Butting or attacking with the knee

1. 5.1.7 Hitting any part of the opponent’s head with the hand

1. 5.1.8 Uttering undesirable remarks or any misconduct on the part of a contestant or a coach

5.1.9 Lifting the knee to avoid a valid attack or impede the progress of an attack

5.2 The following acts shall be classified as prohibited acts, and “Gam-jeom” shall be declared.

1. 5.2.1 Attacking the opponent after “Kal-yeo”

1. 5.2.2 Attacking the fallen opponent

1. 5.2.3 Throwing the opponent by grabbing or hooking the attacking foot in the air or by pushing the opponent
   with the hand

1. 5.2.4 Intentionally attacking any part of the opponent’s head with the hand

1. 5.2.5 Intentionally attacking below the waist

5.2.6 A coach or a contestant interrupting the progress of the match

1. 5.2.7 Violent or extreme remarks or behavior on the part of a contestant or a coach

1. 5.2.8 Intentionally avoiding the match

5.2.9 In case of using PSS, before each round of competition, the referee shall check whether any attemptswere made to manipulate the scoring system and/or increase sensitivity of the sensing socks, or anyother method. In the event that the referee finds intentional manipulation, the referee shall reserve theright to give “Gam-jeom” to the pertinent contestant and shall reserve the right to declare the violatingathlete as the loser by penalty based on the degree of seriousness of the violation.

1. Avoiding or delaying the match:
   This act involves stalling with no intention of attacking. A contestant who continuously displays a non-engaging style shall begiven a penalty. However, the referee shall distinguish intentional avoidance from tactical defense, and the penalty shall notbe given for tactical defense. If both contestants remain inactive after five (5) seconds, the center referee will signal the“Fight” command. A “Kyong-go” will be declared: On both contestants if there is no activity from them 10 seconds after thecommand was given; or on the contestant who moved backwards from the original position 10 seconds after the commandwas given.
   Turning the back to avoid the opponent’s attack and should be punished as it expresses the lack of a spirit of fair play andmay cause serious injury. The same penalty should also be given for evading the opponent’s attack by bending below waistlevel or crouching.
   ‘Pretending injury’ means exaggerating injury or indicating pain in a body part not subjected to a blow for the purpose ofdemonstrating the opponent’s actions as a violation, and also exaggerating pain for the purpose of elapsing the match time.In this case, the referee shall give the indication to continue the match to the contestant two times in five (5) secondsintervals, and then shall give a “Kyong-go” penalty unless the contestant follows his/her instructions.
   “Kyong-go” shall also be given to the athlete who asks the referee to stop the contest for any reason (for instance, in order toadjust position of protective equipment) or ask his/her coach to request for video replay
   
   Falling down:
   1. ‘Kyong-go’ shall be immediately declared in the case of intentional falling down. In the case that a contestant falls down dueto the opponent’s prohibited acts; ‘Kyong-go’ penalty shall not be given to the fallen contestant, while a penalty shall be givento the opponent. In the event a contestant falls as a result of incidental contact with the opponent, “Kyong-go” shall be givento the fallen contestant only for repeated falling. As for unintentional falling down during an exchange of technique, no penaltyshall be given.

To me, that sounds like an invalidated point penalty is applicable for a single instance of falling, with a half point deduction for the fall and further full point deductions applicable for repeat occurrences which would fall under 'avoiding the match'. Or am I reading this wrong? Can anyone shed light?

I think part of the problem is that the responsibility for spotting and deciding intentional falling lies solely with the centre referee, who has a whole lot else on his plate during the match.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So there is a rule against it, but they simply don't enforce it.

 

[Gnarlie]

So there is a rule against it, but they simply don't enforce it.

It seems like sometimes they do, but it varies by tournament, like sometimes they have a clampdown on it. It's normally consistent within each tournament whether they do or do not, otherwise competitors and coaches would complain I guess. That said, at tournaments where they try to enforce it (tends to be the locals rather than nationals and internationals), there are a greater number of complaints and appeals as it is so difficult to enforce consistently across the board.

I'd say it would take an extremely experienced, confident and relaxed referee who was a stickler for enforcing the letter of the law to be constantly aware of this enough to enforce it consistently. It almost needs a separate, extra set of eyes watching just for intentional falling.

Because there's been so much emphasis in recent years on increasing the entertainment factor and not disrupting the flow of the matches, I think there's been a move towards not enforcing this rule more than enforcing it. If falling continues to detract from the entertainment factor in the way it has been doing, it won't be long before the game is adjusted to eliminate the problem.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I cannot honestly say if it detracts from the entertainment factor or not. I also don't really care if the falling is intentional or not; if you can't stand up when you throw your kicks, you shouldn't be getting points for it. The fact that it is enforced more at a local level than at the national (and apparently international) tells me that it simply isn't a priority.

It is about the only thing that I can point to that I strongly dislike and consider to be 'bad' (as opposed to being a matter of tastes).

 

[Twin Fist]

You seem to have a real negative view of KKW TKD
you noticed that? i guess i wasnt being as subtle as i hoped....lol

but I notice that you have studied TKD in the past. How is what you studied different?
100% different, we learn self defense, we dont fall over, we dont wear hogu we punch people in the face.

Has your view of KKW TKD always been like this or has it changed over time?
I think that teh KKW isnt the problem, the WTF is the problem, and the KKW feeds the problem. And since i first saw olympic TKD in 88, i thought it was less than impressive.

What have you done to overcome the same perceived shortcomings in the style of TKD you studied?
the American TKD i came up in didnt really have shortcommings, it was just a very basic art. When i was teaching, i added elements from other arts to round out the corners a bit.

What advice would you offer to a KKW TKD practitioner to improve their SD and martial abilities?
Depends, some KKW school teach decent self defense, if they are WTF sport school, leave and go study a real self defense art. ITF or American TKD, or better yet augment the sport sparring with something totally different, JJ, or Kenpo, maybe Kaju.

Let's have something constructive from you for a change
i tried being constructive for YEARS, now i realize that the people invested in the WTF are blind to it's flaws, and dismissive of anyone that points them out.

Dirty Dog,
that was rude. And i was referring to the sport school, where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two. That IS the subject of the thread after all. And just because your school wasnt like that, and my school wasnt like that, lets not be stupid and pretend no one is like that. MDK isnt like that, the Texas style of TKD isnt like that, but i wasnt speaking to ALL of TKD, i was speaking to the WTF schools.....

either i wasnt clear or you wernt paying attention

 

[Gorilla]

They call falling down if perceived to be intentional or multiple times!!!!

It happens at all levels local, national and international!

If touch your hand to the ground while kicking you will get a penalty!

 

[Gnarlie]

They call falling down if perceived to be intentional or multiple times!!!!

It happens at all levels local, national and international!

If touch your hand to the ground while kicking you will get a penalty!

That's been my experience at some but not all tournaments both competing and spectating. I hope your experiences mean that the rule is being more consistently applied. Did you notice if it was applied in Hamburg?

Gnarlie

 

[ATC]

As for unintentional falling down during an exchange of technique, no penalty shall be given.

You seemed to have overlooked one small detail that you in fact listed.

 

[Cyriacus]

1. 5.1.4 Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent

I would be disqualified before you can bat an eyelid

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I would be disqualAified before you can bat an eyelid

As would I

 

[Gnarlie]

You seemed to have overlooked one small detail that you in fact listed.

I saw that, and it's sort of my point - the decision over intention is subjective and the rulebook places all the responsibility for making it on the centre ref.

Gnarlie

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dirty Dog,
that was rude.

If I posted something rude, by all means hit the RTM button. The rules apply to me just as much as to you.

And i was referring to the sport school, where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two. That IS the subject of the thread after all. And just because your school wasnt like that, and my school wasnt like that, lets not be stupid and pretend no one is like that. MDK isnt like that, the Texas style of TKD isnt like that, but i wasnt speaking to ALL of TKD, i was speaking to the WTF schools.....

either i wasnt clear or you wernt paying attention

AH, I get it. When you say "100%" it doesn't really mean "100%".

If we're going to communicate, it helps if we use the standard meanings of words, rather than our own personal meanings.

Personally, I have never seena school "where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two", but I wouldn't ever claim that means there's no such thing (that would require me to say something about 100%, when I know it's not true...). But, since you claim to know of such a school, please tell me, specifically, what school it is. Shouldn't be difficult since (according to you) it's such a common phenomenon.

Odd, though, that the most sport-oriented posters here have made it quite clear that they certainly do not train in a place such as you describe.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

If I posted something rude, by all means hit the RTM button. The rules apply to me just as much as to you.



AH, I get it. When you say "100%" it doesn't really mean "100%".

If we're going to communicate, it helps if we use the standard meanings of words, rather than our own personal meanings.

Personally, I have never seena school "where they dont learn anything but sport sparring and maybe a kata or two", but I wouldn't ever claim that means there's no such thing (that would require me to say something about 100%, when I know it's not true...). But, since you claim to know of such a school, please tell me, specifically, what school it is. Shouldn't be difficult since (according to you) it's such a common phenomenon.

Odd, though, that the most sport-oriented posters here have made it quite clear that they certainly do not train in a place such as you describe.

We have quite a few schools over here that only teach sport sparring. No form, no self defence just wff competition sparring.

 

[Jaeimseu]

We have quite a few schools over here that only teach sport sparring. No form, no self defence just wff competition sparring.

How big are these schools? I think in the US the sport only model is financially unfeasible,with rare exceptions.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How big are these schools? I think in the US the sport only model is financially unfeasible,with rare exceptions.

No idea to be honest. I have heard about them through mates who do tkd and advertising material Ive seen. I imagine they appeal to students whose main goal is to compete. Its a place they can go and focus soley on that acpect of the art.