Had a Seizure in Jiu Jitsu Class Today

[Tony Dismukes]

I tried bridging but am not as flexible as I would like. I could get my hips and some of my lower back off the ground but my arm was trapped on my upper back

I suspect your were probably trying to move your arm sidewise out from under your back rather than extending it towards your feet. The latter is a much stronger motion.

But would him having two hands on my throat make a difference?

Not really.

here's how I would imagine it going: I push my chin down on to the back of his hand and his hand is prevented from moving as it is resting on his other hand.

Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck?

Not so much. He can still move his hands (although that won't help him choke you.) The main effect of the chin tuck (or turtle-necking as I sometimes call it) is that it thickens and strengthens your neck giving more protection for your windpipe and your arteries. That should relieve the pressure enough for you to be able to say "tap" - especially when the guy choking you is only half your size.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

So the proper name for it is The Hollywood Psycho Choke?

The more common name I've heard for it is the "rape choke", but that can be problematic if you want to run a family friendly academy. It doesn't have an "official" name because it's not a move we train to use, just one we train to defend against.

 

[james0012]

I suspect your were probably trying to move your arm sidewise out from under your back rather than extending it towards your feet. The latter is a much stronger motion.

I can't remember my motions but it sounds like that is what probably happened.

Not so much. He can still move his hands (although that won't help him choke you.) The main effect of the chin tuck (or turtle-necking as I sometimes call it) is that it thickens and strengthens your neck giving more protection for your windpipe and your arteries. That should relieve the pressure enough for you to be able to say "tap" - especially when the guy choking you is only half your size.

I'd imagine the chin wouldn't be able to push against 2 hands though, irrelevant of size. How much motion is required to thicken and strengthen the neck?

The more common name I've heard for it is the "rape choke", but that can be problematic if you want to run a family friendly academy. It doesn't have an "official" name because it's not a move we train to use, just one we train to defend against.

Ah, I can see why. I'm really against the choke and not just for personal reasons.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'd imagine the chin wouldn't be able to push against 2 hands though, irrelevant of size. How much motion is required to thicken and strengthen the neck?

The chin isn't really moving the hands, so that's not an issue. How much your neck shortens in the process mostly depends on how long your neck is to begin with. Probably no more than an inch for most people. The chin itself may move a bit more.

I'm really against the choke and not just for personal reasons.

Wait until people start tapping you out with real chokes, You'll long for the days when it was just an untrained kid with his hands on your throat.

 

[james0012]

The chin isn't really moving the hands, so that's not an issue. How much your neck shortens in the process mostly depends on how long your neck is to begin with. Probably no more than an inch for most people. The chin itself may move a bit more.

My neck is pretty short, his hands were probably covering the entirety of my neck as well as parts of the bottom of the chin.

Wait until people start tapping you out with real chokes, You'll long for the days when it was just an untrained kid with his hands on your throat.

Can't wait! But in all seriousness, I think I would prefer for real chokes with more experienced people.

1) It's less embarrassing. I'm a 6 footer and the kid could well have been under 5 foot and was skinny for that height. Getting in the mount was probably more of me taking it easy on him but the fact that he could push my arms down under his legs and maintain it when I was trying to get out was embarrassing. Also, it's a degrading choke and not being able to tap heightens that. This doesn't even cover the humiliation of urinating oneself.

2) They would have let go sooner. After gagging for quite a long period, I'm sure an experienced student would let go irrelevant of a tap out.

3) It was painful. I'm sure the other chokes from experienced students would be more painful, but this went on for a long time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

First of all, thank you for taking your time to help me with this. It is appreciated and I can tell that you are a good instructor.



I tried bridging but am not as flexible as I would like. I could get my hips and some of my lower back off the ground but my arm was trapped on my upper back. To be fair, I did only try that for about 5 seconds before just trying to tap out with my feet, if I continued I might have been able to dislodge my arm but it was unlikely.



Yes, this does make sense actually. I was under the impression that moving my chin towards his hands would make it a tighter squeeze.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to contradict everything you're saying here, it is good advice. But would him having two hands on my throat make a difference? I did try to move my head in the choke, although I'm not sure if it would count as a chin tuck and made only the most minimal of movements. It probably didn't go like this, I was probably more likely trying to lift my head up instead of tucking my chin but here's how I would imagine it going: I push my chin down on to the back of his hand and his hand is prevented from moving as it is resting on his other hand.

Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck? Got to tell you, when I first started Jiu Jitsu I never thought it would be this complicated. I think I've put more thought into BJJ than my degree.

The chin tuck is powerful. It won't save you from a choke, but it will buy you some time. With a strangle like that, it can buy real time. Pair that with the types of techniques Tony is talking about (once you've practiced them), and it will get you out of this type of situation.

BJJ is simple. BJJ is complex. Because that's how bodies work. As with any grappling art, as you practice more, the moves make more sense. There are common principles across them, so as you learn more ways to do things (techniques), you start to get a better picture of how to manipulate your opponent and yourself.

I'd say if you weren't able to bridge to get your arms free, that's probably not a matter of flexibility, so much as technique and/or core strength. It doesn't take much flexibility to bridge to your shoulders, and it takes a lot of flexibility to get your hand back under your own shoulder. So, you should be able to bridge to free a hand stuck behind you. But, and this is a big "but", you have to bridge well, and that's tough to do under duress when you are still a beginner.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So the proper name for it is The Hollywood Psycho Choke? Who even names these things?

I think that's my favorite accurate name for any attack, ever.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My neck is pretty short, his hands were probably covering the entirety of my neck as well as parts of the bottom of the chin.

That's the key. When you turtle (tuck the chin), you actually occlude their grip a bit, pushing some fingers off the key areas and/or compressing the hands into a weaker position. That's part of the reason it's not as effective on a good rear naked choke - no fingers, and less surface area, so less total effect from the tuck.

 

[james0012]

The chin tuck is powerful. It won't save you from a choke, but it will buy you some time. With a strangle like that, it can buy real time. Pair that with the types of techniques Tony is talking about (once you've practiced them), and it will get you out of this type of situation.

BJJ is simple. BJJ is complex. Because that's how bodies work. As with any grappling art, as you practice more, the moves make more sense. There are common principles across them, so as you learn more ways to do things (techniques), you start to get a better picture of how to manipulate your opponent and yourself.

I'd say if you weren't able to bridge to get your arms free, that's probably not a matter of flexibility, so much as technique and/or core strength. It doesn't take much flexibility to bridge to your shoulders, and it takes a lot of flexibility to get your hand back under your own shoulder. So, you should be able to bridge to free a hand stuck behind you. But, and this is a big "but", you have to bridge well, and that's tough to do under duress when you are still a beginner.

I could move my lower back upwards in the bridge but I needed to move the kid to get out. He had my forearm pinned so even if I could get my arm out from under my back, I would still be pinned. And I couldn't even budge the kid let alone lift him up enough to escape. I guess I should have tried bridging a little more as it was probably better served than uselessly flailing around but I don't think it was possible for me to tap.

And yes, it is very hard to concentrate under duress. I was panicking from all the gagging I was doing and didn't think anything through. My mind was just focussing on trying to breathe. Not to mention, his face is blocking my vision throughout and I can't see what I'm doing.

That's the key. When you turtle (tuck the chin), you actually occlude their grip a bit, pushing some fingers off the key areas and/or compressing the hands into a weaker position. That's part of the reason it's not as effective on a good rear naked choke - no fingers, and less surface area, so less total effect from the tuck.

Okay, that makes more sense then. I'll definitely implement that next time. Would I need access to my shoulders for tucking to work? Because he had my shoulders pinned. Or would simply tucking my neck be enough to verbally tap out?

 

[JP3]

You're applying a level of skill someone with about 8 classes (2 months, once per week, per the OP) probably doesn't execute without a lot of thought. Doesn't sound like strangle-boy gave him time to think that out.

Gerry, Strangle Boy should be capitalized. Proper noun, due to title you so generously bestowed.

Kid's going to grow up to be Shimewaza Man.

James clarified how the kid caught him. I was thinking tunnel vision myself, literally since he Was being choked... and the tunnel vision happens quite often, both in the actual vision and in the progress of thought. But, he clarified about the position and the not speaking thing, and erupting into a full-bklown, explosive escape could have hurt budding Strangle Boy's bod, as well as feelings, so the restraint was admirable.

But, you're right, blood asphyxiation uusually doesn't cause seizures, it causes the momentary shutdown of the voluntary nervous system, thus da muskles. When we reboot that way, often times there's test circuits firing to get things all back online and all green lights acorss the board. Sometimes this manifests in visible, sometimes more than visible but obvious twitching. Happens quite a bit at judo tournaments when the slippery ground guys start working some smooth chokes on people who don't know they are there until it's too late.

And. air chokes suck. Ow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I could move my lower back upwards in the bridge but I needed to move the kid to get out. He had my forearm pinned so even if I could get my arm out from under my back, I would still be pinned. And I couldn't even budge the kid let alone lift him up enough to escape. I guess I should have tried bridging a little more as it was probably better served than uselessly flailing around but I don't think it was possible for me to tap.

And yes, it is very hard to concentrate under duress. I was panicking from all the gagging I was doing and didn't think anything through. My mind was just focussing on trying to breathe. Not to mention, his face is blocking my vision throughout and I can't see what I'm doing.

Don't worry too much about what didn't work at the time. You'll reprogram some instinctive movements into movements that create more effective technique. I'm nowhere near Tony's level (or some of the other BJJ guys here), but I could bridge out of that, free the first arm, and probably manage what Tony described for the other arm. Keep at it, and you'll hit my (not very high) level of ability at bridging fairly soon - probably months, not years. As for not being able to see what you're doing, one of the commonalities in martial arts training is that you learn to feel/know what your body is up to without seeing it. That not being able to see will not be a problem at that point.

Okay, that makes more sense then. I'll definitely implement that next time. Would I need access to my shoulders for tucking to work? Because he had my shoulders pinned. Or would simply tucking my neck be enough to verbally tap out?

Not really, because you're pulling your head down (for a simple explanation) with your neck and shoulder muscles. Shrugging the shoulders will help in a situation like you had, but they are neither very difficult to access (even in that situation) nor necessary for the technique to gain you some time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry, Strangle Boy should be capitalized. Proper noun, due to title you so generously bestowed.

Kid's going to grow up to be Shimewaza Man.

James clarified how the kid caught him. I was thinking tunnel vision myself, literally since he Was being choked... and the tunnel vision happens quite often, both in the actual vision and in the progress of thought. But, he clarified about the position and the not speaking thing, and erupting into a full-bklown, explosive escape could have hurt budding Strangle Boy's bod, as well as feelings, so the restraint was admirable.

But, you're right, blood asphyxiation uusually doesn't cause seizures, it causes the momentary shutdown of the voluntary nervous system, thus da muskles. When we reboot that way, often times there's test circuits firing to get things all back online and all green lights acorss the board. Sometimes this manifests in visible, sometimes more than visible but obvious twitching. Happens quite a bit at judo tournaments when the slippery ground guys start working some smooth chokes on people who don't know they are there until it's too late.

And. air chokes suck. Ow.

Escapes don't have to be all that explosive to work against someone that size. A small shift gains a lot of leverage, and then you can control the rest smoothly.

 

[james0012]

Gerry, Strangle Boy should be capitalized. Proper noun, due to title you so generously bestowed.

Kid's going to grow up to be Shimewaza Man.

James clarified how the kid caught him. I was thinking tunnel vision myself, literally since he Was being choked... and the tunnel vision happens quite often, both in the actual vision and in the progress of thought. But, he clarified about the position and the not speaking thing, and erupting into a full-bklown, explosive escape could have hurt budding Strangle Boy's bod, as well as feelings, so the restraint was admirable.

But, you're right, blood asphyxiation uusually doesn't cause seizures, it causes the momentary shutdown of the voluntary nervous system, thus da muskles. When we reboot that way, often times there's test circuits firing to get things all back online and all green lights acorss the board. Sometimes this manifests in visible, sometimes more than visible but obvious twitching. Happens quite a bit at judo tournaments when the slippery ground guys start working some smooth chokes on people who don't know they are there until it's too late.

And. air chokes suck. Ow.

You make me sound like some kind of hero, all I wanted to do was get the kid in trouble so I could talk to his hot mum

No but seriously, the build up to the mount was when I was taking it easy. When he started strangling me, I attempted many an explosive escape but couldn't move him.

And yes, I'm sure it wasn't a seizure now. Went to the doctors earlier today as promised and got the all clear, just no BJJ for a few weeks until the neck bruising goes down.

They really do suck.

 

[james0012]

Don't worry too much about what didn't work at the time. You'll reprogram some instinctive movements into movements that create more effective technique. I'm nowhere near Tony's level (or some of the other BJJ guys here), but I could bridge out of that, free the first arm, and probably manage what Tony described for the other arm. Keep at it, and you'll hit my (not very high) level of ability at bridging fairly soon - probably months, not years.

Yeah, any sport really is about perseverance and hard work, especially BJJ. I think I'll take an extra class a week if I can find time.

 

[kuniggety]

Yeah, any sport really is about perseverance and hard work, especially BJJ. I think I'll take an extra class a week if I can find time.

I remember my first roll and looking at the other person and just going "what do I do?" I didn't grow up wrestling or even really rough housing. There is a lot to learn in the beginning and it all seems overwhelming at first. Keep it up and piece by piece it will start coming together. You'll start getting more awareness of your breathing, your limbs, your body weight, and your concentration. At the same time you'll start feeling the shifts in the other person's weight, awareness of where all of their limbs are at, etc. You'll start panicking ALOT less as you'll learn to stay calm and assess the situation. The tunnel vision will start disappearing. You won't be going "oh my god, I'm getting choked!". Instead, its "okay, they're working on settling it in and now it's settled in and not I've got a few more seconds", all the meanwhile taking note of the spatial awareness I was mentioning earlier and being able to really think about how to deal with it. A lot of BJJ in the beginning is just learning to really relax in the moment.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yeah, any sport really is about perseverance and hard work, especially BJJ. I think I'll take an extra class a week if I can find time.

Side note: BJJ is incredibly tough, and needs way more than once a week.

My first roll, was with my kempo insturctor, who happened to be a purple belt in BJJ. We agreed before rolling to go for 5 minutes, and I tapped out about 20 times in those 5 minutes. Later, I joined a BJJ school for a month, attended around 4x per week, and my accomplishment there was by the end being able to go 3 minutes without being tapped out. If you are serious about learning BJJ, once a week is not nearly enough time to learn what you need, unless you got 10 years to spare to get decent at it.

 

[james0012]

I remember my first roll and looking at the other person and just going "what do I do?" I didn't grow up wrestling or even really rough housing. There is a lot to learn in the beginning and it all seems overwhelming at first. Keep it up and piece by piece it will start coming together. You'll start getting more awareness of your breathing, your limbs, your body weight, and your concentration. At the same time you'll start feeling the shifts in the other person's weight, awareness of where all of their limbs are at, etc. You'll start panicking ALOT less as you'll learn to stay calm and assess the situation. The tunnel vision will start disappearing. You won't be going "oh my god, I'm getting choked!". Instead, its "okay, they're working on settling it in and now it's settled in and not I've got a few more seconds", all the meanwhile taking note of the spatial awareness I was mentioning earlier and being able to really think about how to deal with it. A lot of BJJ in the beginning is just learning to really relax in the moment.

I've had a few sparring fights now and usually learn something or show signs of improvement in each one even though it's just constant tapping out against more experienced fighters. I've even tapped out a more experienced white belt, an adult this time! The kid though, I think this was his second lesson and he told me that he doesn't have any experience in fighting. So it definitely felt like my learning regressed somewhat from this.

Also, I am usually very good under pressure. I've played football (soccer) for my whole life and am usually playing my best in the 90th minute in close games. I know BJJ is slightly different to football but the point is I've never really cracked under pressure until now. Even in my other BJJ fights, I've never panicked as I knew I had some control on the outcome of the fight by tapping. But in this instance, I didn't have that and he had regulation of my breathing which led me getting a little tunnel vision towards the end there. The point is, I think this was a one time incident where I lost my calm, I don't think tunnel vision is something I have to worry that much about in the future unless this type of choking is a common thing in BJJ.

Side note: BJJ is incredibly tough, and needs way more than once a week.

My first roll, was with my kempo insturctor, who happened to be a purple belt in BJJ. We agreed before rolling to go for 5 minutes, and I tapped out about 20 times in those 5 minutes. Later, I joined a BJJ school for a month, attended around 4x per week, and my accomplishment there was by the end being able to go 3 minutes without being tapped out. If you are serious about learning BJJ, once a week is not nearly enough time to learn what you need, unless you got 10 years to spare to get decent at it.

The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've had a few sparring fights now and usually learn something or show signs of improvement in each one even though it's just constant tapping out against more experienced fighters. I've even tapped out a more experienced white belt, an adult this time! The kid though, I think this was his second lesson and he told me that he doesn't have any experience in fighting. So it definitely felt like my learning regressed somewhat from this.

Also, I am usually very good under pressure. I've played football (soccer) for my whole life and am usually playing my best in the 90th minute in close games. I know BJJ is slightly different to football but the point is I've never really cracked under pressure until now. Even in my other BJJ fights, I've never panicked as I knew I had some control on the outcome of the fight by tapping. But in this instance, I didn't have that and he had regulation of my breathing which led me getting a little tunnel vision towards the end there. The point is, I think this was a one time incident where I lost my calm, I don't think tunnel vision is something I have to worry that much about in the future unless this type of choking is a common thing in BJJ.



The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.

Losing your calm when being choked is normal. That's one of the huge benefits of BJJ training, IMO - you stop being normal in a lot of good ways.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.

Almost every student I've ever taught (not BJJ, but still a comparable training regimen) has attended twice a week. You'll progress about three times as fast going twice a week as going once a week, as you'll lose less between classes.

 

[james0012]

Almost every student I've ever taught (not BJJ, but still a comparable training regimen) has attended twice a week. You'll progress about three times as fast going twice a week as going once a week, as you'll lose less between classes.

I think what I'll do is alternate between 1 and 2 lessons. My wife is 2 months pregnant now so it's likely going to be 1 most of the time for a while. And I do have to miss lessons for a week or two as the neck bruising is turtle-neck-type-prominent.

Thanks to everyone who answered, it was helpful.