Grisly islamist attack in Britain...

[Makalakumu]

We incite them by being who we are. We incite them by having freedom of expression, speech, and religion. Britain has one of the largest populations of muslims in Europe. Extreme right wingers are being incited by the fact that Britain is being over run by muslims. how do we deal with them?

So, when these killers do their deeds and claim it is in response to the wars in the middle east, they really mean, "We hate you because you're free."?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Not quite! They hate us because we are a philosophically Judeo-Christian people. They hate us because on the whole we are tolerant towards those who would be beheaded or stoned in Islamic nations. They hate us because we are not, on the whole, followers of Islam.
Oh, and you didn't answer my question, how do we appease the opposing hateful bastards, you know, the ones who want the guys who beheaded one of Britains finest dead?

 

[billc]

The islamist supremacists want the whole world ruled by sharia...not just the middle east. So they can complain about the problems in the middle east today and want the west to get out...but then they will follow us home...

 

[K-man]

The islamist supremacists want the whole world ruled by sharia...not just the middle east. So they can complain about the problems in the middle east today and want the west to get out...but then they will follow us home...

Bill, we have had our differences of opinion over the years but on this one we are marching side by side. :s151:

 

[Makalakumu]

The islamist supremacists want the whole world ruled by sharia...not just the middle east. So they can complain about the problems in the middle east today and want the west to get out...but then they will follow us home...

I seriously doubt that Islam is going to catch any toehold in the West. The trend has been toward atheism for decades.

 

[Carol]

I seriously doubt that Islam is going to catch any toehold in the West. The trend has been toward atheism for decades.

Not for the migrant population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population

 

[Makalakumu]

Not for the migrant population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_in_the_European_Union_by_Muslim_population

It's less of an issue than people think. Besides, wouldn't cultural mixing with the West be the biggest influence in actually moderating Islam?

 

[K-man]

It's less of an issue than people think. Besides, wouldn't cultural mixing with the West be the biggest influence in actually moderating Islam?

It is a huge issue. Every other wave of immigrants has integrated into society within one or two generations. The exceptions, Orthodox Jews and Muslims. They will not allow their children to go out with potential partners outside the faith unless those people convert to their faith. In the case of the Muslims there are numerous examples of beatings and even killings when a daughter defies this ban. At present they represent a growing section of the population and are demanding more and more rights, including Sharia Law, in our society. We have more and more militant voices preaching in the mosques and I would consider it the number one problem in Australia at present. Most of the illegal immigrants seeking asylum in Australia are Muslim.

This, regardless of how you feel about the majority of Muslims in the world, should scare you to know end: a number of people equal to one-third of the population of the United States of America believes that Islam should be the preeminent religion in the world, dominant over all other religions and that the oppressive and brutal Sharia law should reign supreme, even over the Constitution of the United States, on our shores.
I have been pointing these facts out for years, warning of a fundamentalist Islamist invasion of the European Continent and of “creeping Sharia” in the United States, only to be called a “hate-monger,” “a bigot” and “a racist”...and those are the printable descriptions. Today, as we watch events around the world with regard to the advance of Islam, I stand vindicated in my assessment, yet I take no solace in being correct.
A recent poll by Le Monde, the dominant newspaper in France, as reported by The London Daily Mail, revealed that “Islam is considered a ‘threat’ by millions of French and Germans to their national identity.” It ran the results under “a headline which brands efforts to get different religious communities to live side by side as a ‘failure.’”
According to the poll, 68 percent of the French and 75 percent of Germans believe Muslims are “not well integrated into society.” German chancellor Angela Merkel went as far as to say that the notion of “multiculturalism” in German society – given the issue of non-assimilation by foreigners – had “utterly failed.” Germany has one of the largest Muslim immigrant populations in Europe at 4.3 million. The Muslim immigrant population in France is 7 million and the British come in at 2.4 million. Experts say that almost 85% of the population growth in Europe, as a whole, was due to Muslim immigration and that the Muslim population alone will double by 2020.
The poll goes on to say that:
“...55 percent in France and 49 percent in Germany believe the ‘influence and visibility of Islam’ is ‘too large’, while 60 percent in both countries say the reason for the problem is Muslims’ own ‘refusal’ to integrate...Just as crucially, 42 percent of French and 40 percent of Germans consider the presence of Islamic communities ‘a threat’ to their national identities.
http://www.hawaiireporter.com/about-the-‘muslim-problem’/123

Britain has an even bigger problem.

Britain to have more Muslims than Kuwait by 2030
The Muslim population in the UK will almost double to 5.5million within 20 years, it has been claimed.
Immigration and high birth rates will mean nearly one in ten Britons will be Muslim by 2030, according to a worldwide study about the spread of Islam.
And the forecasts mean Britain will have more Muslims than Kuwait.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...slims-double-5-5m-20-years.html#ixzz2UfLHHi3x

It is hard to find any statistics for Hawaii. The best I can do is find reference to one mosque. So it appears you may be right. In Hawaii you don't have an issue. Unfortunately the rest of us do. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

Hawaii is so small and our major industries are government and tourism. There isn't much reason for Muslim people to want to move here. The people who I do see and interact with seem fine. Several mothers at my school wear headscarves and traditional muslim clothing and they raise really smart and well behaved children.

That said, this idea of creeping Sharia law seems like the same idea as the creeping Red threat. It seems like the same Cold War propaganda, but the focus has merely shifted. There were actual Communists, but they were not the threat they were made out to be. Perhaps it's the same with Muslims?

Governments are great at stirring up hatred of the "other" when soldiers are in the field.

 

[billc]

This article looks at the integration problem...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/riots_and_liberals.html

It's natural for people in the immigrant ghettoes to mistrust the majority culture around them and for the native population to fear the immigrants.

[But] relatively generous welfare benefits enable those in the ethnic ghetto to stay there, stay unemployed, and seethe. Without government subsidies, they would have to overcome the prejudice against them and integrate into the mainstream working culture. Work, in this sense, is anti-terrorist medicine.
​

​

 

[Makalakumu]

This article looks at the integration problem...

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/05/riots_and_liberals.html

​

This sounds like one more problem in the long litany of problems with welfare and not something that is actually a "Muslim" problem. Government removed the incentive to integrate. Perhaps there is nothing special about Islam that makes it more difficult?

 

[K-man]

.
That said, this idea of creeping Sharia law seems like the same idea as the creeping Red threat. It seems like the same Cold War propaganda, but the focus has merely shifted. There were actual Communists, but they were not the threat they were made out to be. Perhaps it's the same with Muslims?

Governments are great at stirring up hatred of the "other" when soldiers are in the field.

I think that this post shows a lack of understanding of the problems inherent in the Islamic religion and the radical elements within. The change we are facing is from a secular society where we are ruled by elected representatives to a religious society where the rules are made and enforced by the Imams, some of whom are radical. I think there is a huge difference between Communism and Islam.

As a child growing up in the 50s, Communism was a very real fear. Our troops were just back from Korea where the Communist forces were using human wave tactics and the prospect of waves of Chinese invading Australia was a real fear. Remember, we had already had the Japanese down as far as New Guinea and bombing Darwin only 10 years earlier. The fear as Khrushchev was sending his missiles to Cuba was the worst time for me and really, when Kennedy forced them to turn the boats, that was the end of the Communist threat as far as we were concerned. Of course the Cold War simmered <sic> for the next 30 years but never with the intensity we felt at that time. But Communism was an ideology. Basically wherever it exists it was achieved by armed conflict. There are a couple of exceptions to that.

But to me the threat of radical Islam is far more insidious. 23% of the world's population is Muslim and very few of those live in First World countries. Most Muslims live in poor countries with little prospect of bettering themselves. They move to places like Europe and Australia to what they consider a much better life, then they try to change wherever they are to the same state they had back home. Nominally, there are more Christians, but how many 'Christians' are actually practising Christians? We wouldn't consider allowing the Christian Church to make and impose our laws, yet we have a growing percentage of our community Hell bent on imposing their's.

As I said, you don't have a problem in Hawaii ... yet! After they f*** the rest of the world you can bet they will discover Hawaii. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

I think that this post shows a lack of understanding of the problems inherent in the Islamic religion and the radical elements within. The change we are facing is from a secular society where we are ruled by elected representatives to a religious society where the rules are made and enforced by the Imams, some of whom are radical. I think there is a huge difference between Communism and Islam.

As a child growing up in the 50s, Communism was a very real fear. Our troops were just back from Korea where the Communist forces were using human wave tactics and the prospect of waves of Chinese invading Australia was a real fear. Remember, we had already had the Japanese down as far as New Guinea and bombing Darwin only 10 years earlier. The fear as Khrushchev was sending his missiles to Cuba was the worst time for me and really, when Kennedy forced them to turn the boats, that was the end of the Communist threat as far as we were concerned. Of course the Cold War simmered <sic> for the next 30 years but never with the intensity we felt at that time. But Communism was an ideology. Basically wherever it exists it was achieved by armed conflict. There are a couple of exceptions to that.

But to me the threat of radical Islam is far more insidious. 23% of the world's population is Muslim and very few of those live in First World countries. Most Muslims live in poor countries with little prospect of bettering themselves. They move to places like Europe and Australia to what they consider a much better life, then they try to change wherever they are to the same state they had back home. Nominally, there are more Christians, but how many 'Christians' are actually practising Christians? We wouldn't consider allowing the Christian Church to make and impose our laws, yet we have a growing percentage of our community Hell bent on imposing their's.

As I said, you don't have a problem in Hawaii ... yet! After they f*** the rest of the world you can bet they will discover Hawaii. :asian:

I think there is little to no chance of a "wave" of immigrants actually enshrining Sharia Law in a Western country. The idea completely preposterous, especially when you consider that religiosity has been declining in Western countries for decades. The bottom line is that secular governments are here to stay. People in the West like it, despite even the complaints from some of the more extreme Christian groups.

If Muslim people have problems integrating, I think it probably has everything to do with the Welfare State, as BillC pointed out. It's not an issue with Islam at all, in fact if you look at other non-Muslim immigrant groups, in places where heaped on benefits take away the incentive to integrate through work, there are always huge issues with integration.

Of course all of this is just a huge boon to governments engaged in Imperial foreign policy. The government creates an environment where immigrants groups have trouble integrating and then it turns around and demonizes them...so citizens will vote to kill kith and kin overseas. I doubt it's some big conspiracy either, it's just an unhappy accident where one predatory wing of the government can take advantage of another.

Personally, I think the lesson citizens could learn from all of this is that if you want to stop the "problem" of the "growing" influence of Islam in Western countries, stop listening to the corporate war propagandists in the media, take away the welfare benefits, and give immigrants real incentive to integrate. The cultural mixing opportunities could actually be tremendous. For example, I would love to discuss the notion that, "there are no gods, but Allah."

After a dose of reason and science, perhaps we could stop with, "there are no gods."

 

[billc]

The big government types don't understand radical islam, so their idea to keep people dependent on government hand outs is going to blow up in their faces...

 

[Makalakumu]

The big government types don't understand radical islam, so their idea to keep people dependent on government hand outs is going to blow up in their faces...

I don't know if it's a matter of not understanding radical Islam. I think it's more of a lack of understanding about the negative effects of entitlement programs. All immigrants that get handouts have a hard time integrating. The same could be said of Native people, but that's a far sadder story.

You are right though, big government is ultimately the problem. Big government gives the handouts that take away the incentives to integrate and big government uses the problems this creates to justify big government foreign policy.

 

[K-man]

I don't know if it's a matter of not understanding radical Islam. I think it's more of a lack of understanding about the negative effects of entitlement programs. All immigrants that get handouts have a hard time integrating. The same could be said of Native people, but that's a far sadder story.

You are right though, big government is ultimately the problem. Big government gives the handouts that take away the incentives to integrate and big government uses the problems this creates to justify big government foreign policy.

Sorry Maka. With regard to Australia, what you have said is a load of bollocks. We don't have a problem with people from any culture physically integrating into our cities. We are amongst the most cosmopolitan countries on Earth. We don't have the situation described in Bill's link and I doubt Britain and Europe do either. If The US does then it is a second problem that you have on top of the first.

There is nothing in anything you have written that indicates you understand anything about the Islamic religion. Perhaps if you researched that instead of just blaming the government we might be able to have a more sensible discussion. :asian:

 

[K-man]

I think there is little to no chance of a "wave" of immigrants actually enshrining Sharia Law in a Western country. The idea completely preposterous, especially when you consider that religiosity has been declining in Western countries for decades. The bottom line is that secular governments are here to stay. People in the West like it, despite even the complaints from some of the more extreme Christian groups.

I don't disagree. What it does mean though is that there will be massive disruption within our communities. We already are getting calls for Islamic areas which would have their own Sharia law.

If Muslim people have problems integrating, I think it probably has everything to do with the Welfare State, as BillC pointed out. It's not an issue with Islam at all, in fact if you look at other non-Muslim immigrant groups, in places where heaped on benefits take away the incentive to integrate through work, there are always huge issues with integration.

Total crap. It has not been a problem for the people from all over the world who have sought refuge in Australia. And it is not the problem o Islam as such. We have had Muslims living in harmony in Australia for more than five or six generations. The problem arises with radicals and no country has yet devised a way of solving it.

Of course all of this is just a huge boon to governments engaged in Imperial foreign policy. The government creates an environment where immigrants groups have trouble integrating and then it turns around and demonizes them...so citizens will vote to kill kith and kin overseas. I doubt it's some big conspiracy either, it's just an unhappy accident where one predatory wing of the government can take advantage of another.

Good grief! You seem to want to blame the government for every problem. The problems you seem to have with government are peculiar to the US. For the rest of us it has nothing to do with government.

Personally, I think the lesson citizens could learn from all of this is that if you want to stop the "problem" of the "growing" influence of Islam in Western countries, stop listening to the corporate war propagandists in the media, take away the welfare benefits, and give immigrants real incentive to integrate. The cultural mixing opportunities could actually be tremendous. For example, I would love to discuss the notion that, "there are no gods, but Allah."

Once again, you are demonstrating a total lack of understanding of the Islamic community. A significant proportion DO NOT WANT TO INTEGRATE!

After a dose of reason and science, perhaps we could stop with, "there are no gods."

As to the existence of God. I think that the actions of lots of people in the name of God goes a long way towards disproving the existence of God. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

We don't have a problem with people from any culture physically integrating into our cities.

Then why is there so much concern regarding Muslims? It would seem to me that Australia does have a problem integrating certain populations of Muslims.

Rather than blaming the radicals, is there something your country could do better?

 

[Makalakumu]

You seem to want to blame the government for every problem. The problems you seem to have with government are peculiar to the US. For the rest of us it has nothing to do with government.

I disagree, I think you'll find that some problems caused by government are universal.

Once again, you are demonstrating a total lack of understanding of the Islamic community. A significant proportion DO NOT WANT TO INTEGRATE!

What reason do they have to integrate? What incentives? People respond to incentives and if wrong incentives are sent to a community, they aren't going to integrate. Have you considered the possibility that somehow this minority population is actually being enabled by government to behave in this way?

 

[K-man]

I disagree, I think you'll find that some problems caused by government are universal.

Please, feel free to point out a few. Beheadings, inflammatory oratory, victimisation of children? They are my concerns.

Then why is there so much concern regarding Muslims? It would seem to me that Australia does have a problem integrating certain populations of Muslims.

Rather than blaming the radicals, is there something your country could do better?

Maybe. Seeing you obviously know more about Australia's problem than I do, feel free to enlighten me. :asian: