Government Secrecy - How much do we really need?

[michaeledward]

Apparently, the Bush Administration feels that who visits the White House - once referred to as "The People's House" - is none of their god damned business.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070105/ap_on_go_pr_wh/white_house_visitors


It must be secret. The irony is that convicted felon Jack Abramoff, and his extensive contacts with the "restore honor and dignity to the White House", White House is what instigated this door slamming.

The five-page document dated May 17 declares that all entry and exit data on White House visitors belongs to the White House as presidential records rather than to the Secret Service as agency records. Therefore, the agreement states, the material is not subject to public disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act.

In the past, Secret Service logs have revealed the comings and goings of various White House visitors, including Monica Lewinsky and Clinton campaign donor Denise Rich, the wife of fugitive financier Marc Rich, who received a pardon in the closing hours of the Clinton administration.

The memo last spring was signed by the White House and Secret Service the day after a Washington-based group asked a federal judge to impose sanctions on the Secret Service in a dispute over White House visitor logs for Abramoff.

 

[FearlessFreep]

What blows my mind is there are a lot of things that are "classified" to some level that are actually well known or seen on Cspan, it is just when you take two pieces of information and put them together that suddenly wht you know becomes classified...

That's called EEFI - Essential Elements Of Friendly Information. An example is that troop movement times are classified but information about leave is not. So if you see a pattern of leave being denied or cancelled, or even changes in patterns at the local laundry, you can piece together and estimate on when the troops are shipping out.

Famous example is Tom Clancy's "Hunt For Red October". He pieced together enough public knowledge to come up with some results that themselves were considered classified. Reportedly, he was visited by some Naval officers who said that parts of his book were classified and would have to be removed, but they couldn't tell him what parts...because the information was classified and Clancy was not cleared for he classified information.

 

[elder999]

Famous example is Tom Clancy's "Hunt For Red October". He pieced together enough public knowledge to come up with some results that themselves were considered classified. Reportedly, he was visited by some Naval officers who said that parts of his book were classified and would have to be removed, but they couldn't tell him what parts...because the information was classified and Clancy was not cleared for he classified information.

Actually, this is untrue. Clancy's principal source was a retired Naval submariner, and the book was initially published by the Naval Instisute Press, which is the publishing arm of the U.S. Naval Academy. The book has several errors, which several people in the know, including a couple of Naval reviewers, did not correct for fear of thus inadvertently revealing the correct, and classified information. The book contains, and never contained, any classified information, though it did reveal a bit more detail than some people would have liked at the time.....

....and, just for giggles, google "U.S. nuclear submarine, maximum depth," and try to find a more accurate official figure than "in excess of 400 feet" maybe "greater than 800 ft." or a very unofficial "probably around 1300 ft.":lol:

 

[FearlessFreep]

"Actually, this is untrue."

Ok, I wasn't sure if this story was true or not. Thanks

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Without secerets we wouldnt have all these neat little conspiracy theories to worry about, talk about, and base our lifeviews on.

 

[michaeledward]

Gee, It seems to me that who enters the White House really isn't some grand state secret. We the citizens of this country own that residence. The occupants of that residence are our employees.

Some conpsiracy theorists thought it was just fine to use the White House access logs to find out when Monica Lewinski entered for work - you do recall she was an aide there.

But, when Jack Abramoff visits, Mr. Abramoff by the way, is in Jail today, as are a couple of the Congress people with whom he associated, when Mr. Abramoff visits it is a State Secret.

Yes ... obviously what we are dealing with is 'conspiracy theories' and 'lifeviews'; not 'restoring honor and dignity to the White House'.

 

[Rich Parsons]

That's called EEFI - Essential Elements Of Friendly Information. An example is that troop movement times are classified but information about leave is not. So if you see a pattern of leave being denied or cancelled, or even changes in patterns at the local laundry, you can piece together and estimate on when the troops are shipping out.

A friend of mine was doing some work and models for the Fed / Military and medical support. Back in the early to mid 90's.

I walked into his office and while we were talking I read his white boards. Given what I knew of medical support personal to troop level and support troop to combat troop I was able to make some deductions. I asked him if we should leave his office as I thought the stuff should or would be classified. (* My Clearance was still active, but nothing I was working on related to this. BTW he worked for a different company I just happened to visit him *) He had no clearance, and the project was not classified either. So I told him about my concern. He laughed and said he would bring it up.

A week later he was in DC making a presentation, and on the spot they classified the information and discsusion. The issue was that he was not cleared now to be on the program and he was the one who had to give the presentation. He talked in general nothing specific and went from there.

Now some of you might ask why would I post this. The troop movement and or decrease/increase in a presence in an area of the world has already been completed by years, and the data has no relevence to today. It may still be classified, and I respect that, but this simple broad example has no specifics. It just represents as the quoted above that little bits of information can add up to something classified.

 

[MBuzzy]

I think that we need less secrecy in some areas and much more in others. In terms of government expenditures, white house entry records, things like that, I agree that those things are completely public domain.

But when it comes to military issues, I think that the media is a bit too involved. The Government does a decent job at keeping the more important things secret, but a lot of things get revealed by the media that probably shouldn't. Now, how long they should be classified....It depends how long they would be useful to the enemy. Even with old information, they can find out a good deal about our tactics, techniques and procedures. It is actually really surprising the things that are and are not classified. Some of the things are are not are pretty scary and the things that are, don't make sense. But, I honestly believe that the American public couldn't handle some of the information that was out there....

 

[Sukerkin]

It's not really any of my business (being English) what levels of secrecy are utilised by the US government but I voted for the 'lowest level practicable' option.

Some things have to be kept secret for a time because they would otherwise compromise legitimate operations of the government.

However, secretiveness is a creeping cancer and it's one that all authoritarian bodies suffer from.

That's why any democratic/republican government needs independant oversight of what it does, otherwise not only does everything become 'need to know' but also things that the population would not (generally) consent to get done in their name but under a cloak.

 

[MBuzzy]

However, secretiveness is a creeping cancer and it's one that all authoritarian bodies suffer from.

That's why any democratic/republican government needs independant oversight of what it does, otherwise not only does everything become 'need to know' but also things that the population would not (generally) consent to get done in their name but under a cloak.

This is a good point, too much secretiveness can be a very bad thing, because it eliminates that element of public oversight. Although some things require internal third party oversight rather than the external public view...which doesn't always understand. And is sometimes biased for the wrong reasons (particularly by the media).

But on the other side of the issue....not enough secrets cause a lot more sneaking around on the side of the government for the things that they truly deem necessary to be kept secret - which leads to more lies.

 

[michaeledward]

But, when Jack Abramoff visits, Mr. Abramoff by the way, is in Jail today, as are a couple of the Congress people with whom he associated, when Mr. Abramoff visits it is a State Secret.

Oops!