To Win or Not to Lose?

[isshinryuronin]

Gichin Funakoshi was taught by Itosu Anko, "Do not think of winning - Think rather of not losing." But Itosu got this from his teacher, Bushi Matsumura. When asked by a defeated foe what his key to victory was, Matsumura answered, "You were determined to win while I was determined not to lose."

Before one discounts this as philosophical nonsense, consider its source. Matsumura was a trained warrior, adept in jigen-ryu kenjutsu, chuan fa, te, goi-ryu (combat from horseback) sai and bo-jutsu. There was no "do" at this time (b. 1797). These disciplines were learned to be used (and were) in deadly combat. He was Chief of Security at the palace and personal bodyguard to the last three Okinawan kings. His students (or their students) were the founders of shorin ryu, shito ryu, and Yamani kobudo.

We have to accept this guy knew what he was talking about. Whether we know what he was talking about is another matter. This seems contradictory to the mindset most of us have in fighting. How does one reconcile Matsumura's viewpoint with his experience in combat and ability to defeat his opponents? Just what does his statement really mean?

 

[skribs]

Gordon Ryan first learned to defend himself in bad positions. This gave him the confidence to try offense, because if his offense missed, he's in a bad position, but he knows how to defend it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We have to accept this guy knew what he was talking about.

You don't need to learn any MA to achieve "not to lose".

When I started to learn the throwing art, I loved to use my strong grips to hold on my opponent. If my opponent could not move and apply his throwing skill, he could not throw me. My teacher didn't like my strategy. I asked him why. He said, "Your opponent may not be able to throw you, but you will never learn/develop any throwing skill with that strategy". I then understood that "not to lose" is a bad MA goal to have.

In throwing art, there is a big difference between:

1. A can throw B.
2. A cannot be thrown by B.

You can dodge a bullet. It doesn't mean that you can shoot.

 

[Same Trick]

“Never contend with a man who has nothing to lose.”

- Baltasar Gracian




“What people loathe the most
Is to be orphaned, desolate, unworthy.
But this is what princes and kings call themselves.
Sometimes gain comes from losing,
And sometimes loss comes from gaining.
What others have taught, I also teach:
The forceful and violent will not die from natural causes.”

- Tao te ching- 42

 

[Badhabits]

Matsumura was likely dealing with life and death situations. Being concerned, or "worried" about winning can upset a calm state of mind needed to not make mistakes, or cause you to take unneeded risks as you pursue winning. This may be fine in fight, you can recover from a mistake in a fight. You might not recover from making a mistake against someone with a weapon.

 

[drop bear]

I think people are better in fights if they want to be there.

From my experience. A lot of people are not 100% committed. And it affects their performance.

 

[HighKick]

Gichin Funakoshi was taught by Itosu Anko, "Do not think of winning - Think rather of not losing." But Itosu got this from his teacher, Bushi Matsumura. When asked by a defeated foe what his key to victory was, Matsumura answered, "You were determined to win while I was determined not to lose."

Before one discounts this as philosophical nonsense, consider its source. Matsumura was a trained warrior, adept in jigen-ryu kenjutsu, chuan fa, te, goi-ryu (combat from horseback) sai and bo-jutsu. There was no "do" at this time (b. 1797). These disciplines were learned to be used (and were) in deadly combat. He was Chief of Security at the palace and personal bodyguard to the last three Okinawan kings. His students (or their students) were the founders of shorin ryu, shito ryu, and Yamani kobudo.

We have to accept this guy knew what he was talking about. Whether we know what he was talking about is another matter. This seems contradictory to the mindset most of us have in fighting. How does one reconcile Matsumura's viewpoint with his experience in combat and ability to defeat his opponents? Just what does his statement really mean?

Hmm, I would aver I subconsciously apply this precept to most things in life. Being honest, I think more in terms of attrition, which ebbs and flows by nature.

The big(er) question for me is are we (and Funakoshi) talking 'friendly' competitions or life and death situations? It should make all the difference.
When I competed, I tried to Not think much about win/loss but more about doing MY best and letting the chip fall where they may. If I knew I fell short of this goal, it was a bad day. It also allowed me to learn a lot against unfamiliar opponents.
I hated to lose (after the fact) but did not concern myself with win/loss before or during a match.

 

[marvin8]

Gichin Funakoshi was taught by Itosu Anko, "Do not think of winning - Think rather of not losing." But Itosu got this from his teacher, Bushi Matsumura. When asked by a defeated foe what his key to victory was, Matsumura answered, "You were determined to win while I was determined not to lose."

Before one discounts this as philosophical nonsense, consider its source. Matsumura was a trained warrior, adept in jigen-ryu kenjutsu, chuan fa, te, goi-ryu (combat from horseback) sai and bo-jutsu. There was no "do" at this time (b. 1797). These disciplines were learned to be used (and were) in deadly combat. He was Chief of Security at the palace and personal bodyguard to the last three Okinawan kings. His students (or their students) were the founders of shorin ryu, shito ryu, and Yamani kobudo.

We have to accept this guy knew what he was talking about. Whether we know what he was talking about is another matter. This seems contradictory to the mindset most of us have in fighting. How does one reconcile Matsumura's viewpoint with his experience in combat and ability to defeat his opponents? Just what does his statement really mean?

That mindset is less contradictory to experienced fighters. Thinking of winning is typically an aggressive approach willing to take more risks. Thinking of losing can be more conservative. In the street, there is no time clock. Surviving is a win.

A deeper precept is "No Mind" or "Mushin.” “Don’t think or be attached to the results. Be in the moment."

 

[isshinryuronin]

When I competed, I tried to Not think much about win/loss but more about doing MY best and letting the chip fall where they may

This is a mindset in TMA where the emphasis is on excellence of technique. In kyudo, one does not "try" to hit the target - use perfect technique from draw to release and the arrow will find its own way. In other words, "rely on your training." This works when your training and skills are excellent, as Matsumura's were. No need to "push" it. Just let your body and mind do its thing.

“Don’t think or be attached to the results. Be in the moment."

In a life-or-death battle, if you are still alive at the end, can't it be said,

Surviving is a win

On the other hand. don't we need some "fire" or intent and commitment in order to overcome and win? Some current or drive to move us towards victory?

Perhaps it depends on the individual and what works for him.

Maybe it's a combination of both - Having a desire to win in the back of your mind but not so over-riding as to cause you to force your technique and cloud your judgement.

 

[wab25]

One way I look at this idea is: take the opportunity that is presented to you, don't force something that is not there.

When I want to win, I want to win by takedown, pin, submission, usually with my favorite arm bar.... But I may be so focused on getting the takedown, that I miss the knock punch. Or, I could be so caught up in trying for the knock out punch that I don't see the leg sweep.

As has been said before, be in the moment... see the opportunities that are presented to you... take one of those, don't force something that is not there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One way I look at this idea is: take the opportunity that is presented to you, don't force something that is not there.

When I want to win, I want to win by takedown, pin, submission, usually with my favorite arm bar.... But I may be so focused on getting the takedown, that I miss the knock punch. Or, I could be so caught up in trying for the knock out punch that I don't see the leg sweep.

As has been said before, be in the moment... see the opportunities that are presented to you... take one of those, don't force something that is not there.

If your right punch has 90% knock down power and your left punch only has 60% knock down power, you will try to create opportunity for your right punch.

If you take the opportunity that your opponent gives you, that opportunity may be for your left punch. If you take it, not only it may lower your chance to end the fight, but it may also put you in risk.

1. Don't have plan (not to lose).
2. Have plan (to win).

IMO, 1 < 2.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No need to "push" it. Just let your body and mind do its thing.

Sometime the winning can be because you put in 100% effort while your opponent only puts in 95% effort.

Your opponent's sword tries to cut your head off. Your sword also tries to cut your opponent's head off. You swing your sword with 100% speed. Your opponent swings his sword with 95% speed. Your sword cut on your opponent's neck just 1/10 second before your opponent's sword can reach to your neck.

Your extra "push' end with you live and your opponent dies.

 

[wab25]

If your right punch has 90% knock down power and your left punch only has 60% knock down power, you will try to create opportunity for your right punch.

If you take the opportunity that your opponent gives you, that opportunity may be for your left punch. If you take it, not only it may lower your chance to end the fight, but it may also put you in risk.

1. Don't have plan (not to lose).
2. Have plan (to win).

IMO, 1 < 2.

Sure, I would try to set up my right. But, why would I pass the 3 opportunities to land my left on the way. Not only does that give me 3 more chances to knock him down... but it is also 3 times where I stopped the other guy from getting off the technique he was settings up. By the time I land my right, I have landed 3 lefts to soften him up, with 3 chances to knock him down, and made him reset his offense 3 times.... and now I land the right. This is exactly what Bushi Matsumura was saying.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

By the time I land my right, I have landed 3 lefts to soften him up,

The reason that you have 90% confidence on your right punch may because you have 90% confidence on your left hand defense. When you use left hand punch, your right hand defense may be weak. Are you going to take that risk?

Opportunity is giving to those who has prepared/trained. There will be no issue if your both sides are developed equally.

If your left arm head lock is not as strong as your right arm head lock, when you use your left arm head lock on your opponent, your opponent may have better chance to escape and counter. So, your left arm head lock may put you in a danger situation.

If your right foot sweep is not as good as your left foot sweep, to against a strong opponent, your right foot sweep may cause you to lose balance. So, sometime even the right foot sweep opportunity is giving to you, are you going to take it?

Our training time is finite. We can spend our training time to develop

1. right side 50%, left side 50%.
2. right side 70%, left side 30%.
3. right side 90%, left side 10%.

IMO, 1 < 2 < 3 if you know how to create opportunity for your strong right side, and let your weak left side opportunity to pass.

 

[skribs]

I think this may be one of those things that it depends where you're starting from.

I remember teaching kids class, and some kids would be really disruptive. So I tell the class they need to focus more. The kids that are usually well-behaved take it that they need to focus even harder, and the disruptive kids tend to ignore it.

A few weeks later, I notice that the kids that are well-behaved are really high strung, so I remind the class that this is supposed to be fun, and not to worry too much about it. The disruptive kids take that as license to be even less disciplined, where the high-strung kids tend to ignore it.

I learned you have to point out that there's a balance. If you find yourself getting called out a lot for behavior: take it more serious. If you find yourself spiraling against perfection, then slow down a bit.

The same I think applies here. If you're the type to shell up every time your opponent twitches, you're focused too much on not losing, and need to be more confident and more aggressive. If you're the type that just slings windmill haymakers or just goes for every submission regardless of how much control you have over the position, you need to try not to lose.