Going to Ground

[fanged_seamus]

Here's a question for everyone....

I keep seeing people give variations on this quote: "90% (75%, 80%, 99%, etc.) of all fights end up on the ground." This quote usually initiates a discussion on grappling / contact manipulation.

However, I've always been suspicious of this quote. I've always assumed that it has been misquoted from the source. It's like there needs to be a second part of to the sentence:

a) "...because the drunk bastards fall down halfway through the fight."
b) "...because most people overextend and lose their balance in a fight."
c) "...because when your getting pummeled, you want to tuck into a ball."

You get the idea . Am I the only one who sees things this way?

I'm not saying grappling / contact manipulation is unimportant -- actually I think it's vital to our knowledge of kenpo. But the QUOTE really bothers me since I don't think it's necessarily true, particularly when one or both combatants have been trained in a martial art.

Anyone have a different take on the quote? Does anyone have first-hand knowledge of where this "statistic" originate?

Tad

 

[Nightingale]

dunno, but I ended up on the ground when I got attacked...

course, it was cause I was stupid and ended up standing on a flattened cardboard box that slid out from under me, but I kicked the bastard in the chin on the way down, which gave me a lot more momentum. i didn't have to ground fight cause he was out cold from his head colliding with the concrete (or my foot connecting with his jaw...not sure which).

 

[Sigung86]

I don't think you can percentage anything. When you are a carpenter and the only tool you have is a hammer, all your problems begin to look like nails.

If you're a grappler, all your fights look like they should have gone to the ground. If you are otherwise... they look otherwise.

I've never had a real fight go to the ground. But I have two reasons for that...

1. An expanded arsenal (more than a hammer)
2. 6 Feet tall, 250 pounds plus. Stable base.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Back in the late 80's early 90's before we knew anything about Gracie Jiu Jitsu they used to run ads in Black Belt Mag claiming around 95% of most fights go to the ground. I believe it comes from the Gracie Challenge, seeing that most of the challenge matches went to the ground. This figure could be inflated by by the Gracie's. But I feel it is probaly in the high 80's percent. Was watching ESPN the other night and they showed 5 or 6 Baseball Brawls. Almost every one of the fights went to the ground. Most of these guys are untrained Martial Artists. How do I know most of them can't land a punch and when they try they fall down. Just like the Gracie's said also in there ads "Most people can't fight from the ground". One important note The Gracie's have been around since the early 1920's doing grappling. Just think if the Gracie's decided to keep their art a serect.
Bob

:asian:

 

[TLH3rdDan]

here is a nice quote i like to use... "90% of all fights may end on the ground but 100% begin standing"

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Two guys seating at the bar and get into a brawl.
Bob

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu
Two guys seating at the bar and get into a brawl.
Bob

"Friday Night"

 

[fist of fury]

It's a proven fact that 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

 

[Sandor]

Originally posted by fanged_seamus

Here's a question for everyone....

I keep seeing people give variations on this quote: "90% (75%, 80%, 99%, etc.) of all fights end up on the ground." This quote usually initiates a discussion on grappling / contact manipulation.

However, I've always been suspicious of this quote. I've always assumed that it has been misquoted from the source. It's like there needs to be a second part of to the sentence...

This is one of those 'marketing' statisitics that I often wonder about myself. I think its a statistic recited by Rickson Gracie on one of the old Gracie demo tapes that was circulating about 10-14 years ago.

Based on my own observations I would say the number is more like 30-40% of the time(best guestimate...), provided there is no interruption by A) bouncer(s) breaking it up B)one of the combatants is rendered helpless(ie ko'd or similar) quickly or C)many combatants being involved(friends of one party jumping into the fray against friends of the other party).


None the less, it would be interesting to find out the true statistic, whatever it is.


Peace,
Sandor

 

[Kirk]

I'm 350 lbs. If a 180lb attacker tries to take me to the ground,
he'd better himself have an arsenal of ways to do that.
Otherwise it's just not happening! By the same token, if I
want it to go to the ground, what can he possibly say about it?!?!
That in itself takes away from that 90% b.s.

In addition, if you're my friend, and someone is on top of you,
on the ground, his head is getting kicked in! The ground isn't
a safe place to be, in my book!

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kirk
I'm 350 lbs. If a 180lb attacker tries to take me to the ground,
he'd better himself have an arsenal of ways to do that.
Otherwise it's just not happening! By the same token, if I
want it to go to the ground, what can he possibly say about it?!?!
That in itself takes away from that 90% b.s.

I think that the 90% is a fallicy as well. However, at 350lbs, well, you're coming down and it'll be easier than a 180lb guy if done right. I know that all the heavy people will come out screaming it ain't so but it's because they've come to rely on that weight. I love how big people throw their weight around. Heh heh heh...

Originally posted by Kirk
In addition, if you're my friend, and someone is on top of you,
on the ground, his head is getting kicked in! The ground isn't
a safe place to be, in my book!

Bingo. Friends are great to have and scary to be on the wrong end of.

 

[fanged_seamus]

After reading some of these responses, maybe I should rephrase the question...

WHY do fights go to the ground? How much of it is intentional, unintentional (but wanted), and flat-out accidental?

In the few fights I've seen / been involved in, the only time anyone ended up on the ground is when they lost their balance, fell, or were tackled in either a desperation move or to end the fight. I've only ONCE seen anyone take a fight to the ground with the intention of controlling the person (two bouncers restraining someone). I'm sure police officers would do that, too. But in those cases, it wasn't a one-on-one fight, and the intention would be to restrain without prolonging the fight.

So realistically, what factors would contribute to a confrontation becoming a wrestling match?

Tad

 

[Sigung86]

I would venture to guess that most fights end up on the ground for one of two reasons....

1. Neither combatant can keep his/her/its balance (72.376%)
2. One opponent feels he/she/it can control the fight better on the ground. (Whatever is leftover %) :lol: :lol: :lol:


Insofar as percentages. I'd say that approximately 63.2370567% of everything Gou says in about 66.3456123% smoke! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sigung86
Insofar as percentages. I'd say that approximately 63.2370567% of everything Gou says is about 66.3456123% smoke

You'd be about 3.14% right.

 

[Blindside]

hey Dan,

at least you are pi right.

I like pie.

Lamont

 

[Klondike93]

Or they play football and are used to tackling people, or they wrestle and want to take you down with single or double leg takedowns.



:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

Who doesn't like Pi? I like Pi "R" and squared even!

The ground is where people go if they feel comfortable. Don't go there if you don't feel comfortable. But make sure you know how to NOT go there.

 

[Blindside]

And be sure you know how to get up if someone puts you there.

I learned groundfighting so that I could get up if someone took me down. Being on the ground sucks, being on the ground and not knowing what you are doing there sucks worse.

Lamont

 

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Blindside

And be sure you know how to get up if someone puts you there.

I learned groundfighting so that I could get up if someone took me down. Being on the ground sucks, being on the ground and not knowing what you are doing there sucks worse.

Lamont

Yeah what he said........



:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

But you got to remember, people who don't learn to fight, do what they can - like try to throw someone to the ground, sit on 'em, and pound their face until it is an unrecognizable mass of bleeding ... well, nevermind, you get the idea.

What part of it boils down to is boys just like to wrestle ... we grew up doing it, and in stress, unless trained differently, we revert back to old response patterns. Whether they are pro-survival or not.

Keep it Real & Keep on Training & Survive,
-Michael
UKS-Texas