Gloves vs Fist. Which one wins for you

[Juany118]

Just because I couldn't figure out how to repost just the pictures. Juanny what part of the hand are they hitting with?

"When you throw a straight/horizontal punch with a horizontal fist you align the first two knuckles in your hand with the bones in your forearm"

And you wonder why there is arguments.

What part of my hand should I use to face palm properly?

There is NO proper way to face the palm, as I said before. It has to do with priorities. A horizontal fist, al la modern boxing, provides for not just round punches but straights. This provide a bit more power (more than a bit for round punches) with a bit more risk of injury. A vertical punch can really only be effectively thrown straight and is not quite as powerful because of the overall mechanics but it's still effective with a bit less risk of injury as compensation. As I said before I actually prefer palm strikes because they are more powerful than the vertical straight punch (physics) and has even less risk of injury.

It seems you believe people are saying "vertical punches are better." This isn't what is being said, it's all about trade offs based on your priorities. My training is straight punches for hard targets using a vertical fist and palm strike. There I admittedly lose a little bit of power with the punch but gain a little bit of safety. I also train round punches but those are used only on "soft targets". Does any of this ensure I will never jack my hand or wrist? No, it's all about percentages and priorities and mine lean towards being a LITTLE safer at the cost of doing a little less damage and a more linear path of attack via vertical punches or stronger palm strikes. Yours may lean towards focusing on damage and more possible angles of attack. Which is better? That's where opinion comes in and there is no right answer.

 

[Juany118]

However here are some other references...

Horizontal Punches vs Vertical Punches

It notes the three things that benefit me... Being naturally slim and fast having straight strikes that are faster, more naturally thrown and providing a safer punch make more sense for me because it maximizes my strengths and minimizes my weaknesses. It doesn't mean again I don't throw horizontal round punches, I just tend to safe them for the body.

In terms of what I said before about the three knuckles here is how the 7th out of the 100 greatest punchers, according to "The Ring" Magazine would punch.

Three knuckle landing
We explained previously that your power-line ends in your pinky finger knuckle. It means that the greatest possible solidity would be achieved if you landed every punch with the little knuckle first. Unfortunately, however, the hand-bone behind the little knuckle is the most fragile of the five backbones. It can be broken the most easily. You must not attempt to land first with the little knuckle. Instead you must try to land first with the knuckle next to your pinky (the ring finger). We’ll call that the 2nd knuckle. Aiming with the 2nd knuckle usually brings about a three-knuckle landing. Those three-knuckles are: middle, second (ring) and pinky. If you aim with the second knuckle, those three knuckles usually will land together because the average fist slopes slightly from the middle knuckle to the pinky. Such a three-knuckle landing not only prevents the hand-bone behind any one knuckle from bearing all the punch-shock, but it also permits punching almost exactly along the power line. Rarely will one of those knuckles make a solo landing. But if you aim with the little knuckle, you risk a dangerous solo landing on forehead or blocking elbow.

So it notes the vulnerability of the last two fingers and tries to find the happy medium to achieve maximum power while minimizing injury but, again, it recognizes the chance of injury. Go to the link below and note the verticals fist btw, and the angle of the arm as the above description is describing a head shot as I previously noted.

Source... Jack Dempsey's explosive straight punching technique | www.SugarBoxing.com

If I get the time I can certainly find more, and if so I will post em.

 

[drop bear]

It is a biological fact that the punch I note naturally aligns the first with the are more naturally at the point of impact. All the old school boxing does is show the application of this fact. Here is why, I am going to assume you know the following but are just being stubborn.

When you throw a straight/horizontal punch with a horizontal fist you align the first two knuckles in your hand with the bones in your forearm for maximum structure so you don't hurt yourself, otherwise you risk the most common "boxer's fracture" occurs to the ring and/or pinky finger. In doing this you protect the fingers but as you canted the wrist without a fair amount of training you now risk injuring your wrist.

Now with the "old school" linear/straight punch, due to how the radius and ulna align, this positioning of the fist happens naturally, there is no need to think about canting the wrist so you have the optimal alignment (for injury prevention) of not only the fist to the target but the fist to the forearm. No voodoo, simple biology which translates into biomechanics.

As for "experts", there is someone who has responded to this thread who is an expert on Western Martial Arts, to include bareknuckled boxing.

Dude look at the pictures. What do you see?

 

[KangTsai]

Speaking of gloves, how about the hemp knotted wraps worn in muay boran/muay caad chuek? They easily do way more damage than knuckles, since the tight rope knots tied at the knuckles make the fist rock-hard and the punches very abrasive. Still rarely used in some competition, but replaced with gloves after several injuries and deaths.

 

[KangTsai]

However here are some other references...

Horizontal Punches vs Vertical Punches

It notes the three things that benefit me... Being naturally slim and fast having straight strikes that are faster, more naturally thrown and providing a safer punch make more sense for me because it maximizes my strengths and minimizes my weaknesses. It doesn't mean again I don't throw horizontal round punches, I just tend to safe them for the body.

In terms of what I said before about the three knuckles here is how the 7th out of the 100 greatest punchers, according to "The Ring" Magazine would punch.



So it notes the vulnerability of the last two fingers and tries to find the happy medium to achieve maximum power while minimizing injury but, again, it recognizes the chance of injury. Go to the link below and note the verticals fist btw, and the angle of the arm as the above description is describing a head shot as I previously noted.

Source... Jack Dempsey's explosive straight punching technique | www.SugarBoxing.com

If I get the time I can certainly find more, and if so I will post em.

I would just like to add that striking with a vertical fist under gloved conditions allows versatile striking distances. This applies to straight punches, hooks and spinning/back fists.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you would be gloves on for the more reliable ko?

I think if the question is purely about being able to do more damage with a punch, that is probably a "yes". A little padding (not the 16 oz gloves) makes head shots (literally) more usable. That's a powerful weapon.

Now, if we're looking at the usefulness of punches in general, I'm not sure a padded hand helps at all for body shots, and probably reduces the effectiveness some. So, I'll take on gloved and one ungloved, please. Billie Jean-do (Of course, you'll have a really good idea which hand is going to hit which part of the body, so there's that.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I took a deeper look at the Wing Chun punch and their method of punching prevents a certain type of arm lock because the elbows are down. In addition it makes throwing a rising elbow that much faster. I'm wondering if this is the reason as things in close quarters happen faster. Also the type of punching that they are doing is a much shorter punch then when using a horizontal fist. These things seem more practical than some of the many excuses I've heard. But then again that's just me looking at the punch from the outside. I don't practice Wing Chun so I can be wrong about the why they use a vertical fist? but what I said about the punch are true.

Those are all reasons why I prefer a short, vertical-fist strike and teach it as the primary punch for my students. NGA traditionally favors a horizontal strike with the elbow held down (actually close to 45 degrees).

 

[Juany118]

Dude look at the pictures. What do you see?

Lol, you answered before you read everything I posted didn't ya lol. Like I said defensive. "Frankie says relax" man.

 

[Juany118]

I would just like to add that striking with a vertical fist under gloved conditions allows versatile striking distances. This applies to straight punches, hooks and spinning/back fists.

I would agree, as do the links I posted but I am having enough of an issue just with the one topic I raised, adding more would just create another point of contention.

 

[Juany118]

I took a deeper look at the Wing Chun punch and their method of punching prevents a certain type of arm lock because the elbows are down. In addition it makes throwing a rising elbow that much faster. I'm wondering if this is the reason as things in close quarters happen faster. Also the type of punching that they are doing is a much shorter punch then when using a horizontal fist. These things seem more practical than some of the many excuses I've heard. But then again that's just me looking at the punch from the outside. I don't practice Wing Chun so I can be wrong about the why they use a vertical fist? but what I said about the punch are true.

I posted some links from Western Boxing sources that discuss the pros and cons of the vertical fist that you may find interesting in addition to the points your raised here.

 

[drop bear]

Lol, you answered before you read everything I posted didn't ya lol. Like I said defensive. "Frankie says relax" man.

What knuckle are they hitting with?

 

[Juany118]

What knuckle are they hitting with?

I already answered, and I am done repeating myself. also, btw it's interesting how, yet again you are moving goal posts, avoiding that the expert in western martial arts that apparently doesn't exist actually exists and posted and are ignoring the links I posted. Since clearly you are just going to keep avoiding the relevant things I posted and keep asking questions until you get an answer you think you can claim as a gotcha moment, I'm done. I get that enough, along with everyone else, from two people on the WC forums.

 

[drop bear]

I already answered, and I am done repeating myself. also, btw it's interesting how, yet again you are moving goal posts, avoiding that the expert in western martial arts that apparently doesn't exist actually exists and posted and are ignoring the links I posted. Since clearly you are just going to keep avoiding the relevant things I posted and keep asking questions until you get an answer you think you can claim as a gotcha moment, I'm done. I get that enough, along with everyone else, from two people on the WC forums.

I would have thought making up a bunch of stuff that supports your position pretty relevant.

Apparently it doesn't.

 

[Juany118]

I would have thought making up a bunch of stuff that supports your position pretty relevant.

Apparently it doesn't.

Read my posts and your question as to what I use is answered. Then read the posts of the expert you ignore. Then read the links I posted that support the first two. I get it, you don't agree, that's cool. We all have different priorities. Those priorities inform our training. If it works that is all that matters. There is no "best" in a universal sense. There is no "special sauce." So in the end it's all good.

However you seem to be looking for some excuse to say you are right and anyone who thinks differently is wrong, without presenting a damn thing. You demand answers and give nothing in return. Not cool. That's why I said sounds like the two guys that stay over on the WC threads.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[RTKDCMB]

Fists are cheaper and hard to forget to take with you when you leave the house,

 

[Langenschwert]

I train my striking for bare knuckle, but we usually spar with finger gloves. Sometimes we go bare knuckle too, but with control. Modern combatives influenced by BKB, Kelly McCann style.

In Arnis I was taught to punch vertically, horizontally, and at about a 33 degree angle from vertical, which was considered preferred at my school. Horizontally was the least preferred. This was back in the 80's and I was just a kid.

Horizontal punches make it easier to cover your head with the shoulder, but do increase the risk of injury. Punching even vertically full power to the top of someone's skull is likely going to break some knuckles though.

We also practice open hands to hard targets, closed fists to soft targets. Even if you're going with fists to the face, we try to target the snotbox area. Open handed, a jab cross becomes an eye strike followed by a palm strike to the face.

Sparring BKB style without gloves, even lightly is super fun. The techniques work so much better, and your sparring partner respects your punches in a way that sparring with pillows doesn't generate. Even with gloves, it's necessary to spar in a boxing format, since if you can't land a jab under pressure, you can't land an eye strike either.

 

[JP3]

Even though I did the Thai boxing for some years, I always used to prefer lighter gloves than no gloves, but I started getting away from using fists to strike and went in the direction of the other types as I didn't want to train in a way that, if I just reacted to someone, could leave me with a broken hand and a 6 to 12 week healing process, if not longer. I started using palms and knifehand/ridgehands more and more, now almost exclusively and haven't noticed much loss of efficacy. A slight less reach, but since I've got gibbon arms that's no real problem.

But now? I'd rather have no gloves at all. It's hard to, once you've got the kuzushi you want, from whatever source you get it, to apply submissions of most types with even light gloves on.

 

[drop bear]

I train my striking for bare knuckle, but we usually spar with finger gloves. Sometimes we go bare knuckle too, but with control. Modern combatives influenced by BKB, Kelly McCann style.

In Arnis I was taught to punch vertically, horizontally, and at about a 33 degree angle from vertical, which was considered preferred at my school. Horizontally was the least preferred. This was back in the 80's and I was just a kid.

Horizontal punches make it easier to cover your head with the shoulder, but do increase the risk of injury. Punching even vertically full power to the top of someone's skull is likely going to break some knuckles though.

We also practice open hands to hard targets, closed fists to soft targets. Even if you're going with fists to the face, we try to target the snotbox area. Open handed, a jab cross becomes an eye strike followed by a palm strike to the face.

Sparring BKB style without gloves, even lightly is super fun. The techniques work so much better, and your sparring partner respects your punches in a way that sparring with pillows doesn't generate. Even with gloves, it's necessary to spar in a boxing format, since if you can't land a jab under pressure, you can't land an eye strike either.

On that note. I know a few guys who have broken their hands from body punching.

If you hand meets an elbow at a bad angle you can break the bone that is near or over the thumb. Scapula?

It can retire a fighter

 

[drop bear]

For me i have tried open hand vs closed fist. And i could stop people more quickly with a closed fist strike.

Which means one one two less punches to my face. And that can be the difference between winning and loosing a fight.

 

[Langenschwert]

On that note. I know a few guys who have broken their hands from body punching.

If you hand meets an elbow at a bad angle you can break the bone that is near or over the thumb. Scapula?

It can retire a fighter

Oh yeah. If you cover by grabbing the back of your head and the incoming fist meets the protruding elbow it, ouch. Likewise when blocking a body shot with the forearm but strike the fist with the elbow instead. When the elbow meets the forearm of an incoming haymaker, that's pretty awesome.

It's fighting after all, and nothing is at all "safe" from the perspective of a non-fighter. But neither is skiing or rugby, so there you go.