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[Sukerkin]

Please calm down, John. You're working up a head of 'typing steam' that will fast-track you to the ban-hammer. This is not the old Study, the rules of conduct are much more stringent now.

I don't know why it is so that you are so much more fiery these days than you used to be but it does no harm to damp the coals, for you can make your point much more clearly with calm words than with intemperate ones.

 

[elder999]

no, it isnt, and you need to wake up, OR quit telling that lie

the koran preached murder, rape and violence from start to end, and it preaches conversion BY FORCE

thats the FACTS, your wishfull thinking is irellevant.



it isnt islamophobia when they are in fact trying to kill you because thier book TELLS THEM TO KILL YOU IF YOU DONT CONVERT

****, you need to learn to tell the truth, or you need to learn the truth, because the crap you are talking ISNT TRUE

1)Have you considered, even for a second, that maybe-just maybe-Jenna is a Muslim? Have you considered the very valued members who don't post here anymore because of postings like this one of yours? Please do.(For the record, I don't know if she is or isn't, but consider that if she is, your post insults her.)

2)Muslims instruct goodness and rule out evil as to Allah's command to "command what is right and forbid what is wrong" (Surah Luqman, 17) and call people to the path of Allah with words of purity. Yet, believers know Allah guides to the right way (Surah Al-Qasas, 56), so after elucidating the truth they leave people to their own freedom of conscience. The contrary is out of the question, because trying to make someone Muslim by means of pressure, threat or force is primarily against the essence of Islam.There is no compulsion in religion. Like a great many other religious texts, the Koran is full of contradictions: while you can cite verses that are exhortations to war, and to convert unbelievers and bring death to those who refuse to convert, you can also find a great many verses that say this very thing, that there is no compulsion-that such conversions are false, and those who force them are false Muslims.

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in God has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And God hears and knows all things.” Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256


"If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” Sûrah Yûnus: 99

“So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to God, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in God’s sight are all of His servants.”Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20

By cherry-picking and finding verses that justify your hatred for you, John, you're doing the same thing those false Muslims do to justify their terrorism. The fact that they believe what they preach, and get others to, and call it "Islam," does not make it or their actions Islam, anymore than the actions of the Westboro Baptist church and abortion-clinic bombers are Christian.

 

[Tez3]

except that she is wrong

and you're full of bile. As with many religious things there are many views, you chose the one that feeds your hatred. I asked before and got no answer what of the many Muslim soldiers that are in the British Forces and who are dying in Afghan?

http://www.islamforpeace.org/quran.html#point1

Point 1: Does the Quran instruct Muslims to kill Non-Muslims?
Significance of the definite article "Al" (i.e., "the")
​

A friend of mine once told me that the Quran instructs Muslims to kill all Infidels. I agreed with him that violent interpretations of the Quran exist and permeate many of our Islamic books. My friend then quoted the following 3 verses to prove his point.

Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9}
Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}

​

I thanked my friend for making this point as well as indicating these verses, and then responded as follows:

Comments:
Clearly, the above verses can incite much animosity and subsequent violence vis-a-vis all non-Muslims. Accepted literally - and uncritically - these verses lend themselves to the unjust persecution of otherwise innocent people, whose only crime is being non-Muslim. However, a pivotal matter of linguistic importance is often overlooked: the significance and usage of the definite article, "al" (i.e., "the"), which precedes the various disparaging Arabic words - kafirun, mushrikun - that describe non-believers in the Quran and which are often translated as "non-believers," "infidels," "idolaters," or "polytheists." Furthermore, in Arabic, the definite article is physically attached to the word it describes.
See below:

Quran: {The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101}
Quran {Prophet, make war on the infidels Sura 66: 9
Quran {Never be a helper to the disbelievers Sura 28:86}

​

The exact Arabic expression in these verses - indeed, in every verse that talks of the non-believer - is "Al-Kaferrin" or "Al-la-dhina Kafaru." The use of "Al-" or "Al-la-dhina" limits the verse (and thus commandment) to 1) a specific time and place in historyand 2) a specific group of people who were obstacles to the establishment of Islam in its nascent phase. It is these two factors that caused these verses to be revealed. Had the intentions of the Quran been to extend the application of these verses in perpetuity, it would have used the expression "Man Kafar," rather than "Al-Kafereen" or "Al-La-dhina Kafaru". The former, "Man Kafar," literally means any one who does not believe in God; while the latter, "Al-Kafereen," - the infidels - denotes a specific group of people: they who fought Prophet Mohamed in the early stages of Islam.

Moreover, the overriding principle which must ultimately guide our understanding of these verses is the constant Quranic reminder that good Muslims do not initiate violence against others so long as the latter do not provoke hostilities.

Quran 2:190 Fight in the cause of God those who start fighting you, but do not transgress limits (or start the attack); for God loveth not transgressors.
​

Indeed, according to other verses, even if a Muslim deemed someone an infidel, according to the Quran, he is still obligated to:

1. Behave with courtesy :
Consider, for instance, the following verse, which is supposed to instruct Muslims as to how they should deal with non-Muslims in the midst of hostilities (such as war): 9:6 And if any of the Idolatries (who are fighting you) seeks thy protection, grant him protection, so that he might [be able to] hear the word of God [from thee]; and thereupon convey him to a place where he can feel secure:
If Muslims are to behave with such clemency and magnanimity vis-a-vis the infidel during times of war and conflict, how much more should be expected of their interactions with non-Muslims during times of peace?

2. Respect his freedom of choice to be a "Disbeliever" - as this is a right bestowed upon humanity by God:
Quran 18:29 proclaims, "The truth is from your Lord": it is the free will of any person to believe (in God) or to be an Infidel (Un believer).

3. Even if a Muslim should be convinced that someone is a non-believer, still he must accept that his fate is in the hands of God alone, since no one human can condemn another - this must be left to the judgment of God.
Quran 88:25-26 for behold, unto (ONLY) Us (means God) will be their return, Then it will be for (ONLY) Us to Judge (humans).
22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians (can mean an ancient religion or people with no specific religion), Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.

The significance of the definite article ("al") or the substantive pronoun ("al-la dhina") which confines the aforementioned verses to a specific time and place - that is, the past, history - as well as against a specific people (i.e., the polytheists of the Arabian peninsula), is also key to understanding those many other verses that are often cited to incite violence against non-Muslims:
1- The infidels are your sworn enemies Sura 4:101
2- Make war on The infidels who dwell around you Sura 9:123
3- When you meet The Infidels in the battlefield, strike off their heads Sura 47:4
4- Mohamed is Alla's apostale. Those who follow him are ruthless to The infidels Sura 48:29
5- Prophet, make war on The infidels Sura 66: 9
6- Never be a helper to The disbelievers Sura 28:86
7- Kill The disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191)
8- 9:29 [And] fight against those (Al-La-Zina) who - despite having been vouchsafed revelation [aforetime] [40] -do not [truly] believe either in God or the Last Day, and do not consider forbidden that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, [41] and do not follow the religion of truth [which God has enjoined upon them] [42] till they [agree to] pay the exemption tax with a willing hand, after having been humbled [in war]. [43]
9- 47:4 Therefore, when you meet The infidels (unbelievers), [4] smite their necks until you overcome them fully, and then tighten their bonds; [5] but thereafter [set them free,] either by an act of grace or against ransom, so that the burden of war may be lifted: [6]

 

[Twin Fist]

eh. I dont think so, but whatever

Please calm down, John. You're working up a head of 'typing steam' that will fast-track you to the ban-hammer. This is not the old Study, the rules of conduct are much more stringent now.

I don't know why it is so that you are so much more fiery these days than you used to be but it does no harm to damp the coals, for you can make your point much more clearly with calm words than with intemperate ones.

 

[Twin Fist]

Jeff, i do not care if she is or isnt, if the truth offends her, maybe she should ask herself why she follows a religion whose teachings offend her so much.

and give me a break, i BARELY post AT ALL anymore, so if anyone left, screw them, it isnt on me. I am barely around these days, and that is a FACT

everything i said is factually correct and you know it. the koran preaches violence. it COMMANDS violence against the infidel. there is no wiggle room on that.

sure the bible says some of the same crap, and the people that actually follow the twisted parts? they earn my ire too. and you know it, so dont pretend otherwise.

but a LOT of people follow the "bad stuff" from the koran, you know it, i know it, everyone knows it.. you all are just too scared of sounding mean to say it.

oh, and Tez? did i do something to give you the impression i cared what you thought?

1)Have you considered, even for a second, that maybe-just maybe-Jenna is a Muslim? Have you considered the very valued members who don't post here anymore because of postings like this one of yours? Please do.(For the record, I don't know if she is or isn't, but consider that if she is, your post insults her.)

2)Muslims instruct goodness and rule out evil as to Allah's command to "command what is right and forbid what is wrong" (Surah Luqman, 17) and call people to the path of Allah with words of purity. Yet, believers know Allah guides to the right way (Surah Al-Qasas, 56), so after elucidating the truth they leave people to their own freedom of conscience. The contrary is out of the question, because trying to make someone Muslim by means of pressure, threat or force is primarily against the essence of Islam.There is no compulsion in religion. Like a great many other religious texts, the Koran is full of contradictions: while you can cite verses that are exhortations to war, and to convert unbelievers and bring death to those who refuse to convert, you can also find a great many verses that say this very thing, that there is no compulsion-that such conversions are false, and those who force them are false Muslims.



By cherry-picking and finding verses that justify your hatred for you, John, you're doing the same thing those false Muslims do to justify their terrorism. The fact that they believe what they preach, and get others to, and call it "Islam," does not make it or their actions Islam, anymore than the actions of the Westboro Baptist church and abortion-clinic bombers are Christian.

 

[elder999]

Jeff, i do not care if she is or isnt, if the truth offends her, maybe she should ask herself why she follows a religion whose teachings offend her so much.

That you don't care who is offended is obvious. This forum is supposed to be at least somewhat friendly, though-for the record, I think she's a Christian, but-unlike some-I truly do not care.

and give me a break, i BARELY post AT ALL anymore, so if anyone left, screw them, it isnt on me. I am barely around these days, and that is a FACT

THere are those who are not around at all anymore-one was Muslim-and they are missed-just as you were during your apparently forced absence from the Study.

It's as I said, though; they're not here because of posts like yours-not necessarily just yours, or yours at all.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:
Twin Fist no longer has access to The Study and it's subsections.

 

[Tez3]

It's clear there are Muslims who want to destroy the non Muslim world, it's also equally clear that there are Muslims who don't and want to live in peace. The problem is to control one without hurting the other. We have the same problem with other religions and beliefs, it's a universal human problem. when you get a belief you get fanatics. You even get fanatics with non beliefs!
Hating all Muslims isn't going to solve the problem of the violently inclined Muslims, ranting isn't going to sort out the problem either, while you're busy ranting someone comes up behind you and biff you're down. We need to take a calm look at Islam, find out who believes what for one thing, like other religions (or any group of any type) there are various groups and even sub groups. Find out who we can work with, who we can't and who really are the enemy. I don't think anyone here disputes the fact of Islamist Jihadists and their type, we aren't shutting out eyes to the dangers there but tarring all Muslims as dangerous is in it self dangerous.
On the face of it Israelis and Arabs are 'enemies' but every day in many small ways they get on, they work together and co exist. It can be done and on a bigger scale it just needs a cool head, and a willingness to take that first step.

 

[JohnEdward]

Ignore, too risky.

 

[elder999]

Admin Note:
Twin Fist no longer has access to The Study and it's subsections.

I'll honestly miss him-I valued the contrast of some of his opinions, and sometimes agreed with him.

More to the point, he'll not be able to benefit from the likes of Jenna's gentle wisdom, and perhaps see things differently....

....but I can't say I'm surprised.

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[Josh Oakley]

No. Because as you know it is because they think they are right, they are just, no matter what they say or do. Because religion bends to man, man doesn't bend to religion.

Both things happen.