Genbukan - Gift of Traditional Martial Arts!

[Yugen]

Nice review, Brian...

I think one of the aspects of our martial arts that is not talked about so much is seishinteki kyoyo: spiritual refinement. I think a key issue that the movie is trying to bring across is just that. When the martial artist has that right focus, then he or she can give something back to society. As I understand it, this is a big part of Tanemura Soke´s message, and why - in addition to the great variety of material arts we study - it is so rewarding to be a part of the Genbukan.

I think people who keep pounding the old question of "is ninpo relevant in today's world" need to look deeper.

All the best,
Bard

 

[George Kohler]

I don't understand the Chinese Bagua grandmastership because Wang shu jin has passed his line on to alot of others and Li Zi Ming who taught hie own form of Liang style Bagua has also passed on his teachings. So IMO it is errorous to say Grandmastership in Wang shu jin bagua or Cheng(some say Wang's Bagua comes from Cheng style) or Li Zi Ming Bagua or even Liang style Bagua grandmaster. What would most likely be correct is 5th generation because Li Zi Ming was I believe 3rd generation.

I think you are confused. In the Genbukan website there is a page which lists his "masterships." Some he has listed as soke and some menkyo kaiden are listed as well. Of course there is an exception, and that one exception is Hakkesho. The one listed for Hakkesho (Japanese for Baguazhang) says 5th "denjin" (伝&#20154 which translates roughly as "lineage holder." This implies he is qualified to teach Baguazhang and is a 5th generation holder. I hope this helps with the understanding.

 

[JadeDragon3]

Great video trailor.

I trained for a short while under one of Stephen K. Hayes' students back in 1989. This was back when Hayes and Hatsumi were still together and on good terms and before Hayes found that To Shin Do crap. I really enjoyed my ninja classes (LOL) back then but the teacher moved away. We were not part of the Bujinkan Dojo but were members of the Shadows of Iga Society.

I will probably buy this DVD. It looks really good.

 

[Chris Parker]

And going along with that, what are the japanese traditions as far as foundings, and passing along arts etc... Is it common for a "Master" to pass ownership to multiple students... I've seen in the west how common it is for someone to "spin off" and form their own "Sokeship"... is it done that way in Japan often?

Sorry, Cryo, I missed this part of your question earlier. I just posted this in another thread, hopefully it'll help here.

Menkyo Kaiden is a certificate of full transmission of a particular Ryu, or school. The circumstances under which it is awarded changes depending on the system, the established tradition, and the head at the time. It involves not only knowing all the techniques as listed in the Mokuroku (literally, a catalogue, or list of techniques), but an internallisation of the strategies, tactics, and principles of the school. It also often involves Kuden, and Okuden (oral teachings, and inner, or hidden teachings). There may or may not be other Okuden teachings that are reserved for the next Soke and no other.

The 13th Soke of Takagi Ryu was named Yagi Jigero Hisayashi, and he had a number of students. When he came ot awarding Menkyo Kaiden, he had 3 top students, Ishitani, Ishibashi, and Fujita. He chose to award Menkyo Kaiden to only Ishibashi and Fujita, leaving Ishitani out. Ishitani then ambushed Yagi as he was walking in Okura valley with a drawn katana, attacking the Soke. Yagi escaped by throwing a piece of wood at Ishitani as a distraction. The next night, Ishitani arrived at the dojo, and Yagi greeted him as if nothing had happened. He then took Ishitani to the back room, and awarded him Menkyo Kaiden. As they left, Yagi said "Who would have given you your Menkyo Kaiden if I was dead?" So it's not always such a happy occasion, and pettiness gets involved from time to time.

Each of these Menkyo holders sent their teachings down different branches, giving the groupings we have today, including, from Ishitani, the branch(es) found in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and split-off organisations. This is a very common thing, and it is assumed that you take your Menkyo Kaiden and form your own interpretation. It is only in (relatively) recent times that students would stay with a teacher after achieving Menkyo Kaiden, and that is very much a peacetime adaptation.

As stated above, in fuedal periods, the awarding of Menkyo Kaiden was similar to a graduation, and marked the end of the students time with that particular teacher or Ryu. The student might seek out another teacher or Ryu (like doing a post-graduate course), or may simply start up their own dojo based on what they had learned. The decision to change or preserve things rested entirely with the student (now Instructor). A major deviation would result in a new Ryu, a more minor one may just be a different branch (as Tanemura Sensei has begun teaching his Tanemura-ha branches of various schools).

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I think you are confused. In the Genbukan website there is a page which lists his "masterships." Some he has listed as soke and some menkyo kaiden are listed as well. Of course there is an exception, and that one exception is Hakkesho. The one listed for Hakkesho (Japanese for Baguazhang) says 5th "denjin" (伝&#20154 which translates roughly as "lineage holder." This implies he is qualified to teach Baguazhang and is a 5th generation holder. I hope this helps with the understanding.

Hey George thanks for clearing that up. However I can not find the term Denjin in any Kanji dictionary. Den meaning passing on and Jin meaning person. Lineage is kakei. The term Denjin means more like passenger or something. I guess if you put Den-passing and Jin-person together I guess you can come up with Lineage holder but to Japanese native it seems to not be the same. Here is a link claiming to be 5th grandmaster http://bamatatsumaki.tripod.com/tanemura/grandmasterships.html

Chinese Martial Art Hakkesho Pa Kua 5th Grandmaster

Also where does the Imperial Qigong come from? I have not heard of this type of Qigong before.

Imperial Qi Gong: Method taught by Dr. Warner Chen, a proponent of Human Resources Chi Gong, Marrow Cleansing Chi Gong, and Quantum Leap Chi Gong therapy. Imperial Chi Gong. Imperial Qi Gong is a variation of Qigong therapy.

http://www.experiencefestival.com/forum/vBTube.php?do=search&search=Imperial%20Qi%20Gong&page=1&per_page=24 Imperial Qigong Bagua terrible performace though.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I wanted to add this as well: http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?Sato_Kinbei

Sato was made the 4th generation grandmaster of Kakkesho.

I think they meant Hakkesho

Tanemura Sensei received the 5th generation grandmastership

Again the claim of grandmastership not just 5th generation but 5th generation GRANDMASTER.


http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?chugoku

This implies that Li Zi Ming either Li Zi Ming,Sato Kimbei,or Wang shu jin passed this on.

http://www.natsta.org/MartialArts/liangZhenPuBagua.asp

In 1989, Master Li appointed Vincent Black as president of the United States branch of the Li Ziming Baguazhang family. Working closely with Master Li, Dr. Black coordinated the English translation and publication of Master Li's commemorative treatise on Liang Zhenpu Eight Diagram Palm.

In the original Ninpo Bugei taijutsu manual(not the revise) do we not find it listed as 5th grandmaster and not "denjin"?

http://bamatatsumaki.tripod.com/tanemura/grandmasterships.html

Is this not the list from that original manual?

He started learning Chinese martial arts in 1956 and was the first Japanese who became 4th generation Grandmaster in Chinese martial art Hakkesho (Pa-Kua).

http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

Here we go again with the 4th generation GRANDMASTER.
Again Imperial Qigong in Japanese it is listed as Kiko(which just means Qigong)So where does the Imperial fit in?

Also the titles Japan Chinese Martial Art Federation, Saitama Director
Japan Jujutsu Federation, Executive President

Do these organizations exist?
Here is Japanese Jujutsu international federation http://www.ajjif.org/

If you can provide a link in English or Japanese that would be great.

 

[George Kohler]

Hey George thanks for clearing that up. However I can not find the term Denjin in any Kanji dictionary. Den meaning passing on and Jin meaning person. Lineage is kakei. The term Denjin means more like passenger or something. I guess if you put Den-passing and Jin-person together I guess you can come up with Lineage holder but to Japanese native it seems to not be the same.



Also where does the Imperial Qigong come from? I have not heard of this type of Qigong before.


http://www.experiencefestival.com/forum/vBTube.php?do=search&search=Imperial%20Qi%20Gong&page=1&per_page=24 Imperial Qigong Bagua terrible performace though.

Damn, I had a good reply and I lost it... This is a shortened version of the lost reply.

The reason you can't find the word "denshin" in a Japanese dictionary is because it is not a Japanese word per se. It is a Chinese word pronounced in Japanese. The Chinese pronounces it as 'chuanren' and they use alternate characters (傳人 or 传&#20154 and can be found in a Chinese dictionary. http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=chuan+ren&wdrst=1&wdeac=1

To explain more on 'chuanren' here is a quote from a interview of White Crane master Su Ying Han:

PengCheng Chen: When you adopt a disciple, what is your expectation? Have you got any particular requirements for such a disciple?



Master YingHan Su: First of all, I would like to say something on the differences between a disciple and a student. For those who come and train occasionally and whose purposes are for the health-keeping, I would like to group them as "students." As with the disciple, we have got several kinds of disciples. In YongChun County, the first disciple that a sifu has is called "KaiShanMen Disciple" -??-, which can be translated as, "Open-the-door-of-the-Mountain Disciple." The last disciple that a sifu has is known as "GuanShanMen Disciple -??-, which literally means, "Close-the-door-of-the-mountain Disciple." The third kind of disciple is those who train and live with a sifu for a period of long years—we name it as "DengTanRuShi Disciple," From these three kinds of disciples, only the prominent and the skillful will have the opportunity to become the so-called "ChuanRen." ChuanRen is a person who can inherit White Crane kung fu in a systematic manner.

The reason you see it listed under "Grandmasterships" or "Masterships" is because we refer these terms as some who has received menkyo kaiden (or the equivalent to complete transmission) or "soke." There are exceptions to this and this would be for Hakkesho (baguazhang) which the term is "denshin" (see above). We do not refer "denshin" as "soke" which is not a Chinese concept.

As for Imperial Qigong, I am not sure. I've only been trained in "jing gong" (tranquil/quiescent work - In Japanese it is called Seiko) which is the body being still and the mind is controlling the qi (chi).

I hope this helps.

 

[George Kohler]

http://www.natsta.org/MartialArts/liangZhenPuBagua.asp

In 1989, Master Li appointed Vincent Black as president of the United States branch of the Li Ziming Baguazhang family. Working closely with Master Li, Dr. Black coordinated the English translation and publication of Master Li's commemorative treatise on Liang Zhenpu Eight Diagram Palm.

I'm not sure why this was brought up.

Also the titles Japan Chinese Martial Art Federation, Saitama Director
Japan Jujutsu Federation, Executive President

Do these organizations exist?
Here is Japanese Jujutsu international federation http://www.ajjif.org/

The link you posted has Dr. John J. Williams as the international director, which is a red flag.

As for the Japan Chinese Martial Art Federation (全日本中国拳法連盟 - Zen Nihon Chugoku Kenpo Renmei), Sato Kinbei was the President. I believe Tanemura Sensei left the organization when Sato Sensei passed away. Sato Kinbei's daughter is now in control of that organization. www.jujutsu.com

I think the Japan Jujutsu Federation was an organization that Sato Kinbei, Tanemura Sensei, Kaminaga Shigemi, andI think a few others. They created this back in early 90's when they were doing seminar type classes of their ryuha. After a few years later Tanemura Sensei distance himself from the others (not Sato Kinbei). I don't have the kanji for this organization and there was no website since the web was not around then.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

傳人 or 传人

Pronounced as Fu jin if the Kanji is typed in a Japanese translator.

But this Kanji is not used as Denjin or for the meaning of Denjin.

The reason you can't find the word "denshin" in a Japanese dictionary is because it is not a Japanese word per se. It is a Chinese word pronounced in Japanese.

There is Denshin and Denjin in dictionary translator. Denshin can mean Gentleman or cable transfer depending on the Kanji. I already said what Denjin is.
So yes it is Japanese word. Usually Chinese words mean the same in Japanese/ Qi=ki Liangzhi=Renshi Hakkesho=Bagua etc etc

传话人

Here is the Hanzi for Chuan hua ren but this translates as messenger same as Denjin kinda of translates and not as Grandmaster or linerage holder. http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddictbasic&wdqb=chuan+ren&wdrst=1&wdeac=1

The reason you see it listed under "Grandmasterships" or "Masterships" is because we refer these terms as some who has received menkyo kaiden (or the equivalent to complete transmission) or "soke." There are exceptions to this and this would be for Hakkesho (baguazhang) which the term is "denshin" (see above). We do not refer "denshin" as "soke" which is not a Chinese concept.

I see it listed as 5th grandmaster has I have shown in the links I provided. Not generation holder I think there is a difference and it seems a bit misleading.
Example: My line does come from Wang shu jin(4th generation)-Mr.C.C.(5th generation)-Mr.C.(6th generation)-Me(7th generation) But we can not claim grandmaster but generation even though the teachings were passed on because Wang shu jin and Li Zi Ming had hundereds of students which Mr.Black represents the United states branch.
Are you saying the title is now Denshin or Denjin?

jing gong

Calm training. If the body is still and the mind is controling Qi then it would be Nei gong(inner training) or Yi Yi Yin Qi which means using intent(mind) to lead Qi. Also what is the Kanji for Seiko. Is the Kanji Sei and Ko put together to get Tranquil(sei) and the Ko from Kiko?

 

[George Kohler]

Ok, I give up. You win.

 

[newtothe dark]

Dont give up George fight till the last drop!!!!! hehe

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I did not think we were fighting.

The point was Mr.Tanemura claimed to be 5th grandmaster in Bagua.
He did change it to 5th generation grandmaster and changed the title to Denjin. Denjin is made up of the Kanji Den and Jin. Den=transmission,passing Jin=person. So yes in a way you can see it as messenger=Den(passing information) Jin-person Passenger(Den-(passing)Jin-person. I suppose you can get Den(transmission) Jin=person. But if we look at the Kanji for linerage or decendant we do not get Denjin because as George said it is not a Japanese word per say.

George then said that Chuan ren is the way Japanese say Denjin however if we look at the Kanji 傳人 This is read as Fujin Fu-Assisant Jin-person which kinda of reads the same in Chinese as Chuanren according to the link. If in some way Den=Chuan(which the Kanji/hanzi says Fu) Ren=Jin(person then I guess we can see it as Denjin as Chuanren(though the Kanji/Hanzi reads differently.) Mr.Tanemura is a 5th generation Bagua practicer(Li Zi Ming was 3rd Sato Kinbei was 4th) but the Grandmaster title or Denjin does not seem to be correct.

 

[skepticsnake]

to get back on topic - the DVD - does anyone know where i can buy it from a UK site? Thanks