Funakoshi was Mabuni's junior?

[BlackCatBonz]

does it really make a hill of beans difference anyway?
both men left huge legacies that have the martial arts world discussing them long after they've left the world.

 

[arnisador]

There are a couple of clips here: http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/Karate-kata-videos.html

There's some great stuff there. The footage is grainy but the execution is so sharp and powerful!

 

[Danjo]

There's some great stuff there. The footage is grainy but the execution is so sharp and powerful!

Here's another good link for Shotokan Kata. No Funakoshi on this one, but good stuff.

http://www.shotojukukai.com/kata/kata.htm

 

[Gene Williams]

Having read many articles and the book by Motobu, I think that he was a great Karate fighter. No one questions this. However, I think that his hostility towards Funakoshi and Kano came from frustration. Funakoshi, and those that were with the Dai Nippon Butokukai had a lock on Japan in terms of teaching Karate. Motobu was unable to get a great following there, and even those he did recruit, were not always able to understand him due to the language difference. He was the "High quality Mom-and-Pop store." and Funakoshi and Kano were the Wal-Mart of their times for Karate and Judo. Kano had dealt with the same attitudes towards himself from old-style Jiu Jitsu-ka who felt that Judo was too safe and tame. If things had been left to Motobu and his ilk, Karate would have stayed a back-water art known only to a few people that could personally train with the master instead of the international phenomenon it has become. Is it better to learn Karate like Motobu taught it? Probably. Is it practical? No. Funakoshi made Karate accessible to the masses. Without him, most of us would probably not know what Karate is today.

You are correct, but I think a lot was lost in the Japanization/popularization of Okinawan karate, especially with the changes in kata and the de-emphasis of bunkai. But, as you say, you nor I either one might be here if it weren't for Funakoshi.

 

[Danjo]

You are correct, but I think a lot was lost in the Japanization/popularization of Okinawan karate, especially with the changes in kata and the de-emphasis of bunkai. But, as you say, you nor I either one might be here if it weren't for Funakoshi.

From what I'm currently reading, no one understood the bunkai to begin with after Itosu and Matsamura. They simply didn't pass it on. Motobu criticized Funakoshi for not understanding the Bunkai, but he didn't know Itosu's bunkai either. They all just sort of felt their way around in the dark. Shotokan's Secret goes into this quite a bit.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Shotokan's Secret goes into this quite a bit.

This is an interesting book, but largely absurd. It is not based on any actual fact. The author just conjured up a facniful history based on an old drawing that they found.
There is some discussion of it e-budo.com

 

[Danjo]

This is an interesting book, but largely absurd. It is not based on any actual fact. The author just conjured up a facniful history based on an old drawing that they found.
There is some discussion of it e-budo.com

The first part is factual and footnoted pretty heavily. The remainder is pure speculation, but the author states that up front.

 

[arnisador]

There is some discussion of it e-budo.com

They usually have people who know for sure. Do you have a link?

 

[kenpojujitsu]

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30006

 

[Miles]

Thanks for all the informative responses and the links.

Miles

 

[arnisador]

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30006

Thanks!

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Funakoshi made Karate accessible to the masses. Without him, most of us would probably not know what Karate is today.

It's true that he made karate available to the masses. But I doubt that we would not know what karate is today without him.

The spread of karate was inevitable. Even without Fnakoshi going to Japan and Shotoak building up around him, there was still Mabuni, Miyagi and others. It might have happened at a later date, but it would have spread - only differently.

At the same time Karate was starting to spread in Japan from Okinawa, it was also spreading to Hawaii directly from Okinawa. Students of Motobu went to Hawaii, as did Miyagi. You can read some history at the Hawaii Karate Museum site http://www.hikari.us/

Even after WWII, American servicemen still would have learned in Okinawa and brought some back to the states. Plus, it would have spread from Hawaii to California and on to the rest of the country.

Those styles, like Tae Kwon Do, that came about as just rehashed Shotokan may not exist. But Goju RYu, Shito Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Motobu Ryu, Shorin Ryu and the others still would have taken root and grew

I still think that Funakoshi's contributions are over-rated.

 

[Danjo]

Those styles, like Tae Kwon Do, that came about as just rehashed Shotokan may not exist. But Goju RYu, Shito Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Motobu Ryu, Shorin Ryu and the others still would have taken root and grew

I still think that Funakoshi's contributions are over-rated.

Where is Motobu Ryu being taught? I know his son Chosei teaches it, but it is not exactly wide-spread as far as I know. Many of the other Karate Masters were brought to Japan due to interest created by Funakoshi. Also, a big reason that Karate was allowed to come back and be taught the way it was was due to the interest created in Japan before WWII. If it had remained an obscure Okinawan art, it might have died out. Motobu's contribution to Karate in Hawaii is what I think is overrated. He couldn't even get out of the holding facility. That experience was always described as frustrating for him.

I think that you have some bizzare axe to grind where Funakoshi is concerned. He may not have been the greatest Karate fighter of all time, but he was a good teacher and the seeds he planted have yeilded an enormous harvest. I don't know a lot of Motobu Ryu stylists.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

"Where is Motobu Ryu being taught?"
It's not the spread of Motobu Ryu, as much as the influence. Motobu's Karate had a strong influence on what was being taught in Hawaii and is the foundation for what many people call "Kenpo Jujitsu".
Motobu and Miyagi had a far greater impact on Karate in Hawaii than Funakoshi.
If Funakoshi were not in the picture, the arts still would have spread from Hawaii to CA and the rest of the country.

 

[Danjo]

"Where is Motobu Ryu being taught?"
It's not the spread of Motobu Ryu, as much as the influence. Motobu's Karate had a strong influence on what was being taught in Hawaii and is the foundation for what many people call "Kenpo Jujitsu".
Motobu and Miyagi had a far greater impact on Karate in Hawaii than Funakoshi.
If Funakoshi were not in the picture, the arts still would have spread from Hawaii to CA and the rest of the country.

Motobu's influence on Mitose is dubious beyond the fact that Mitose plagiarized part of Motobu's book to make his own. I don't consider the spread of Hawaiian Kenpo/Kempo to be the same as the spread of traditional Karate. Chinese Kung Fu might also have spread to the USA eventually, but that is not what we're talking about here.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

Yes, Mitose basically copied Motobu's book. Many think he was able to obtain a copy and mainly reproduce the photographs.
But Motobu's students did have a strong influence on Karate in Hawaii. Much more than Funakoshi or his students.
Mitose likely trained with the students of Motobu who did make it to Hawaii. Mitose was a scoundrel but he did have skills that you can not develop just be reading books. He trained with someone.

There is a reason why he tried to emulate Motobu and not Funakoshi. That is because of Motobu's reputation in Hawaii. The traditonal karate in Hawaii at the time was mainly influenced by 2 people - Motobu and Miyagi.

Again, the path was from Okinawa to Hawaii. Not Okinawa, Funakoshi/Japan, then Hawaii. Karate in Hawaii developed without the help of Funakoshi and thus would have spread to the U.S. without even a mention of Funakoshi. Funakoshi may be seen as the "father of modern karate" in Japan by many. But he is largely irrelevant outside of Japan.

Karate most certainly would have spread around the world without Funakoshi. It would have been slower and kept much more traditional, but it woas destined to happen. That was one of Miyagi's goals for Goju Ryu. Motobu may have had some different goals, but spreading out beyond Okinawa was most certainly one of his goals. If not, he would not have been concerned about Hawaii at all.