Cruentus
Grandmaster
http://www.extremeprosports.com/MMA/frank_shamrock_vs_renzo_gracie.html
I guess this fight happened over the weekend. Did anyone catch it?
I guess this fight happened over the weekend. Did anyone catch it?
Frank Shamrock Vs. Renzo Gracie on EXC...
- Thread starter Cruentus
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Cruentus
Grandmaster
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Wow after watching that Shamrock got ripped off with the disqualification.
It was one of those situaions where you wonder if Renzo really got hurt. It didn't really look like it to me but really he could of. And the fact that Renzo was doing good up to that point. Hard to call.
Yes when I look at it I felt the knees were to the side and some to the back. However, clearly Frank deserved to win that one.
I disagree...
I'd buy the first knee strike to the head as being accidental. And I think the ref should have stepped in faster, to prevent the second. But both times, Shamrock had his hands on Gracie's head, then moved an arm out of the way to deliver the knee. I just can't see where he could have thought that he was below the shoulder... I don't think they were maliciously thrown as deliberate illegal techniques, though. I think it was more a case of rule confusion on his part. After all, they were consistent within his clear strategy of waiting Gracie out on the ground and delivering knees to soften him up...
I think Gracie clearly won the first round; the second was up in the air, and ended too soon to tell how it would have gone.
My Sifu saw the fight and added some context.
Apparently Shamrock was hotting Gracie in the back of the head during the fight. The ref warned him once and then ultimately he had a point deducted for it.
So by the time he threw those knees at Gracie it was obvious he was intending to.
I just watched it on YouTube but he cought it on TV and heard all the announcers disscussing it.
--Infy.
Apparently Shamrock was hotting Gracie in the back of the head during the fight. The ref warned him once and then ultimately he had a point deducted for it.
So by the time he threw those knees at Gracie it was obvious he was intending to.
I just watched it on YouTube but he cought it on TV and heard all the announcers disscussing it.
--Infy.
I don't agree that Frank should of won. It wasn't enough of a fight to call it either way. But Renzo was clearly in control. I didn't think that Frank would of spent so much time on his back but given the rules he was able to stand back up so he could of been down even longer under another set of rules.
I really thought that Frank would of countered the ground game much better. I don't know what happened. Maybe he over-trained?
I really thought that Frank would of countered the ground game much better. I don't know what happened. Maybe he over-trained?
DavidCC
Master of Arts
I watched it live and in slow-mo on my DVR. Shamrock was intentioanlly kneeing to the head and neck. He even said "I hit him in the head with my knee... I guess that's illegal - I figured he would move his head." and "I guess I need to spend some time with the Rules Committee so I can learn these new rules" and "I thought we came to fight, I was just doing whatever I have to do to win." (paraphrasing a little from memory)
But I'm not sure it is knee to the head that was the foul, but the knee to the back of the neck. He threw one and it hit the back of the neck. Herb Dean warned him verbally but did not stop the action. A few seconds later Shamrock did it again and this time caught Gracie flush across the back of the neck and he was immediately dazed and rolled off of Shamrock. Dean stopped the action at that point.
This is the same Renzo that tried to continue with a seperated elbow, right? the EMT's wanted to put a neck brace on but he wouldn't let them. I saw how he looked and I don't think he was faking. I think he would have continued if he could.
Did Shamrock do something he knew was a foul? In my opinion, YES because just seconds before, Dean had warned him not to do it a second time. A DQ loss for Shamrock? I dunno. I would have preferred to see a "No Contest". but then again, an intentional foul that makes your opponent unable to continue... that's pretty bad.
But I'm not sure it is knee to the head that was the foul, but the knee to the back of the neck. He threw one and it hit the back of the neck. Herb Dean warned him verbally but did not stop the action. A few seconds later Shamrock did it again and this time caught Gracie flush across the back of the neck and he was immediately dazed and rolled off of Shamrock. Dean stopped the action at that point.
This is the same Renzo that tried to continue with a seperated elbow, right? the EMT's wanted to put a neck brace on but he wouldn't let them. I saw how he looked and I don't think he was faking. I think he would have continued if he could.
Did Shamrock do something he knew was a foul? In my opinion, YES because just seconds before, Dean had warned him not to do it a second time. A DQ loss for Shamrock? I dunno. I would have preferred to see a "No Contest". but then again, an intentional foul that makes your opponent unable to continue... that's pretty bad.
I'd say no contest would of been better.
Eternal Beginner
Brown Belt
I watched the fight and the disqualification was valid. When you sign up for a fight in any league you agree to their rules. If you don't like them, don't fight for them.
Gracie was taking Shamrock down consistantly and controlling him, Shamrock had no answer except to cheat. If Renzo had shown the same blatant disregard, Shamrock would have been out earlier as he (Gracie) could have been throwing devastating knees from side control, which he had for a large part of the fight.
A no contest ruling would only have been justified in case of an accidental not intentional blow to the back of the head that caused Gracie being unable to continue. An intentional foul warrants disqualification.
Gracie was taking Shamrock down consistantly and controlling him, Shamrock had no answer except to cheat. If Renzo had shown the same blatant disregard, Shamrock would have been out earlier as he (Gracie) could have been throwing devastating knees from side control, which he had for a large part of the fight.
A no contest ruling would only have been justified in case of an accidental not intentional blow to the back of the head that caused Gracie being unable to continue. An intentional foul warrants disqualification.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
I just finished watching the video of the fight and I have a totally different perspective of the fight than most of you and of what I have heard others say about it. First, let me start by saying that whatever the rules of the contest are, that's what you have to play by. OTOH, the way you train is the way you react.
Frank has been training regularly (until this past year 2-3x per week and even then, he still comes in to play) for the last several years at my instructor's school. I generally get to play 3-4x per year when I come back to town. Gracie's "domination" on the ground was no such thing. What Frank was doing with the knee strikes from the side control through most of the first round is exactly what we train to do. In fact, we have a NHB pattern and that is a major part of the third section of it (we work with a partner from both top and bottom position). He had a chain grip controlling Gracie's head and shoulders in a clinch and was very content to just wear him down with the knee strikes to the body. I'd be very happy to let Gracie take me into that position to soften him up if I were in Frank's place.
The position Frank had on him would be like Royce having someone in his guard and kicking his heels into the opponents kidneys in the early UFC's. To someone not knowing what they were seeing, it would seem "the guy on top" was in the dominant position (while the opponent would have blood in his urine for a week). The one time that I saw that I would not have been happy to stay in the position Frank was in was at the very end of the first round. Gracie did seem to be getting a better position when that round ended.
When Renzo took Frank down in the second round, you saw more of the same. After reading people's comments on the internet (here, MAP, and Sherdog), I really was surprised and thought something had gone terribly wrong with Frank's fight plan or training. After seeing the fight, I can tell you that is what we train to do. When I saw Renzo manuever to a north/south position, I KNEW what was coming. In our NHB pattern, this is the bottom section of section seven. This is how we train, pure and simple. As I said earlier, the way you train is the way you react. If I were in Frank's position, I would never have expected a fighter of the calibre of Renzo Gracie to have opened up for and move into those knees to the neck and head.
I do NOT believe for a moment that Renzo was faking or milking the injury, he has far too much pride and warrior spirit to go that route. OTOH, I don't think Frank was intentionally trying to foul him either. And I KNOW from the way we train that it wasn't some "desperation move" as some people have speculated. Other than a very brief time at the end of the first round, the fight was going the way Frank would be very happy with and under the circumstances would not have been frustrated at all.
Some people may read this and think I am just covering up for one of my "home team", but this went exactly along the lines of how we train. If Renzo Gracie is kind enough to offer such a "gift", it would be ungracious of Frank to refuse the positions he was given. However, this does not take away from the fact that this was illegal in this competition. Though I would have preferred to have seen this declared a "no-contest", I can see how it was judged a DQ.
It reminds me of an AAU TKD tounament that I competed in about 8-9 years ago (sorry, I was caught up in all that Olympic fever and the AAU offered a route in with what I hoped would be less politics). There was supposed to be a full contact division, but since I was only competitor for that division, they stuck me in with the point fighters. I had not fought points in over a decade and had mostly kickbboxed, so adapting to the restrictions of Olympic TKD were a big enough change at that. They put me in with some kid, who giving credit where it is due, who was really good at points/tag. I was really holding back, but the first time I let myself go/just flow, I crushed his cheekbone. I got DQ'ed for excessive contact, but there was absolutely NO malice or intent to break the rules. I saw an opening and just did what I trained to do. It happened so fast that I didn't realize what had happened until it was over. Along the same lines, I believe this is the same type of thing that happened to Frank.
I'm going out to San Jose later this week for my instructor's 60th birthday party and I am assuming I'll see Frank there. If he has other commitments and isn't there, there will be several of the guys from his training camp there and I'll try to bring back some of his/their perspective away from all the "macho posturing" and hype.
Frank has been training regularly (until this past year 2-3x per week and even then, he still comes in to play) for the last several years at my instructor's school. I generally get to play 3-4x per year when I come back to town. Gracie's "domination" on the ground was no such thing. What Frank was doing with the knee strikes from the side control through most of the first round is exactly what we train to do. In fact, we have a NHB pattern and that is a major part of the third section of it (we work with a partner from both top and bottom position). He had a chain grip controlling Gracie's head and shoulders in a clinch and was very content to just wear him down with the knee strikes to the body. I'd be very happy to let Gracie take me into that position to soften him up if I were in Frank's place.
The position Frank had on him would be like Royce having someone in his guard and kicking his heels into the opponents kidneys in the early UFC's. To someone not knowing what they were seeing, it would seem "the guy on top" was in the dominant position (while the opponent would have blood in his urine for a week). The one time that I saw that I would not have been happy to stay in the position Frank was in was at the very end of the first round. Gracie did seem to be getting a better position when that round ended.
When Renzo took Frank down in the second round, you saw more of the same. After reading people's comments on the internet (here, MAP, and Sherdog), I really was surprised and thought something had gone terribly wrong with Frank's fight plan or training. After seeing the fight, I can tell you that is what we train to do. When I saw Renzo manuever to a north/south position, I KNEW what was coming. In our NHB pattern, this is the bottom section of section seven. This is how we train, pure and simple. As I said earlier, the way you train is the way you react. If I were in Frank's position, I would never have expected a fighter of the calibre of Renzo Gracie to have opened up for and move into those knees to the neck and head.
I do NOT believe for a moment that Renzo was faking or milking the injury, he has far too much pride and warrior spirit to go that route. OTOH, I don't think Frank was intentionally trying to foul him either. And I KNOW from the way we train that it wasn't some "desperation move" as some people have speculated. Other than a very brief time at the end of the first round, the fight was going the way Frank would be very happy with and under the circumstances would not have been frustrated at all.
Some people may read this and think I am just covering up for one of my "home team", but this went exactly along the lines of how we train. If Renzo Gracie is kind enough to offer such a "gift", it would be ungracious of Frank to refuse the positions he was given. However, this does not take away from the fact that this was illegal in this competition. Though I would have preferred to have seen this declared a "no-contest", I can see how it was judged a DQ.
It reminds me of an AAU TKD tounament that I competed in about 8-9 years ago (sorry, I was caught up in all that Olympic fever and the AAU offered a route in with what I hoped would be less politics). There was supposed to be a full contact division, but since I was only competitor for that division, they stuck me in with the point fighters. I had not fought points in over a decade and had mostly kickbboxed, so adapting to the restrictions of Olympic TKD were a big enough change at that. They put me in with some kid, who giving credit where it is due, who was really good at points/tag. I was really holding back, but the first time I let myself go/just flow, I crushed his cheekbone. I got DQ'ed for excessive contact, but there was absolutely NO malice or intent to break the rules. I saw an opening and just did what I trained to do. It happened so fast that I didn't realize what had happened until it was over. Along the same lines, I believe this is the same type of thing that happened to Frank.
I'm going out to San Jose later this week for my instructor's 60th birthday party and I am assuming I'll see Frank there. If he has other commitments and isn't there, there will be several of the guys from his training camp there and I'll try to bring back some of his/their perspective away from all the "macho posturing" and hype.
OP
OP
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Kwan Jang; it would be good to hear more on the subject if you get to talk to Mr. Shamrock in person.
Personally, I think both Renzo Gracie and Frank Shamrock are respectable fighters who have been in the game for quite a while, and from what I hear and from what it seems, they both seem like stand up guys. I don't assume intentional foul play from either of them. I don't think that Renzo was faking anything. Furthermore, it didn't appear to me that Shamrock intentionally broke the rules. When you fight from one set of rules to the next, it can get somewhat confusing or easy to mix up in the heat of the moment. Under some rules, I believe you can knee from the bottom while on ground, just not from the top while opponent is down. Another example of where it can get confusing is with elbows. I know that under some rules you can elbow from the mount, but you can't downward elbow to the back or back of head, for example. I am not a "rules expert" by any means, but I can see how the differences from one competition to the next could be easy to confuse.
That said, I think that Renzo was dominating the match, at least based off the first round. I can see the point of training to lock up and knee when side mounted. This is wise because you want to be able to create damage from any position. However, I don't see how this would be the goal. In other words, I can't see a fighter saying, "I am going to let him shoot on me, take me down, side mount me, and then I will hold him and hit him with knees." I think that if Frank could have fought the whole 1st round standing, he would have. I think that if he could have defended Renzo's takedown, he would have and opted for a top position or kept the fight standing. I just don't see how allowing someone to control the fight from a side mount while you throw knees is the 1st choice.
The second round I did have them even. Frank got some great shots in from the standup position, before he ended up side mounted again. But once again, he was put in a less advantagous position; sure, one that (rules aside) gave him a knock out, but that just attests to how dangerous a fighter of Shamrocks skill level is. It does not change the fact that being side mounted isn't the best place to be.
I just think that getting taken down consistantly and caught in any mount position with a Gracie is a really bad idea, and a serious problem for a fighter if he can't stop it from happening. It would only be a matter of time before one would be forced to tap.
Personally, I think both Renzo Gracie and Frank Shamrock are respectable fighters who have been in the game for quite a while, and from what I hear and from what it seems, they both seem like stand up guys. I don't assume intentional foul play from either of them. I don't think that Renzo was faking anything. Furthermore, it didn't appear to me that Shamrock intentionally broke the rules. When you fight from one set of rules to the next, it can get somewhat confusing or easy to mix up in the heat of the moment. Under some rules, I believe you can knee from the bottom while on ground, just not from the top while opponent is down. Another example of where it can get confusing is with elbows. I know that under some rules you can elbow from the mount, but you can't downward elbow to the back or back of head, for example. I am not a "rules expert" by any means, but I can see how the differences from one competition to the next could be easy to confuse.
That said, I think that Renzo was dominating the match, at least based off the first round. I can see the point of training to lock up and knee when side mounted. This is wise because you want to be able to create damage from any position. However, I don't see how this would be the goal. In other words, I can't see a fighter saying, "I am going to let him shoot on me, take me down, side mount me, and then I will hold him and hit him with knees." I think that if Frank could have fought the whole 1st round standing, he would have. I think that if he could have defended Renzo's takedown, he would have and opted for a top position or kept the fight standing. I just don't see how allowing someone to control the fight from a side mount while you throw knees is the 1st choice.
The second round I did have them even. Frank got some great shots in from the standup position, before he ended up side mounted again. But once again, he was put in a less advantagous position; sure, one that (rules aside) gave him a knock out, but that just attests to how dangerous a fighter of Shamrocks skill level is. It does not change the fact that being side mounted isn't the best place to be.
I just think that getting taken down consistantly and caught in any mount position with a Gracie is a really bad idea, and a serious problem for a fighter if he can't stop it from happening. It would only be a matter of time before one would be forced to tap.
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
I don't go out to San Jose until Friday, so I can't say anything definitvely. However, though you are correct that being side mounted is not the best position, I really believe that Frank honestly didn't care. (If I am corrected on it this weekend, I will report back). IMO, Frank feels he is dominate enough in ANY position that he will just let it go there and he will win.
If you remember Frank's first win in the UFC against Kevin Jackson, Frank didn't resist at all the takedown attempt by an Olympic gold medal wrestler. He then went on to submit him with an armbar within seconds. Frank's general game plan (and the way we train) is to be extremely good in all areas, then wait for the other guy to make a mistake (or we keep up a dynamic enough presure to force one) and then take advantage of it.
I could be wrong (and will report back honestly if I was), but I really believe that Frank was as happy as a pig in mud to be where he was. If he could have KO'ed Renzo Gracie with strikes from a standing position (like he did Cesar), it would have been less work and a quicker victory. OTOH, I know that with the length of the fight, I would have been quite comfortable in the bottom of a side mount if I were able to land kness. I would have felt that I was getting the better of the exchange and was wearing him down, because that is something that we train extensively. Also, Renzo doesn't have much muscle density in his back to absorb those knees. If I were Frank, I would have thought I was in the better position.
Let me state this clearly, IMO (I did not talk to him about this specifically before this bout, but I have heard him voice this type of opinion before) going into the fight Frank was confident that whether it was stand up or ground, striking or grappling, that he had a signifcant edge. I know he had (though if my assessment is wrong, this may have changed) no fears of a pure ground submission contest with ANY of the Gracies. Over the years, he's been more of the mindset of proving that his strategies and methods were not only more versitile, but superior in every respect. I believe that if Renzo had not tried to get away from the knee strikes by exposing his head and neck in a north/south position, Frank would have gone on to prove just that.
If you remember Frank's first win in the UFC against Kevin Jackson, Frank didn't resist at all the takedown attempt by an Olympic gold medal wrestler. He then went on to submit him with an armbar within seconds. Frank's general game plan (and the way we train) is to be extremely good in all areas, then wait for the other guy to make a mistake (or we keep up a dynamic enough presure to force one) and then take advantage of it.
I could be wrong (and will report back honestly if I was), but I really believe that Frank was as happy as a pig in mud to be where he was. If he could have KO'ed Renzo Gracie with strikes from a standing position (like he did Cesar), it would have been less work and a quicker victory. OTOH, I know that with the length of the fight, I would have been quite comfortable in the bottom of a side mount if I were able to land kness. I would have felt that I was getting the better of the exchange and was wearing him down, because that is something that we train extensively. Also, Renzo doesn't have much muscle density in his back to absorb those knees. If I were Frank, I would have thought I was in the better position.
Let me state this clearly, IMO (I did not talk to him about this specifically before this bout, but I have heard him voice this type of opinion before) going into the fight Frank was confident that whether it was stand up or ground, striking or grappling, that he had a signifcant edge. I know he had (though if my assessment is wrong, this may have changed) no fears of a pure ground submission contest with ANY of the Gracies. Over the years, he's been more of the mindset of proving that his strategies and methods were not only more versitile, but superior in every respect. I believe that if Renzo had not tried to get away from the knee strikes by exposing his head and neck in a north/south position, Frank would have gone on to prove just that.
