Forms and Imaginary Opponents

[Dronak]

I was wondering about this and didn't see any obvious thread about it on a quick search of the forum. It's not really style specific, so I figured I'd post it here.

One of the things I've heard/read or been told is that one aspect of martial art forms is that they often simulate combat sequences. So when you're practicing, you're supposed to keep this in mind and imagine there's an opponent you're fighting. Well, sometimes I think about this for forms I know. I try to figure out how the moves might be used in actual combat sequences. I have a bit of a problem/concern though. Sometimes changes of directions in the form don't seem to make sense if you have a single imaginary opponent. Say you finish a sequence in one direction, then make a half turn for the next. Did your opponent run around you really, really fast? I don't think so, that doesn't seem reasonable. Is there supposed to be a second imaginary opponent then? That seems plausible, but I really have no idea of how to keep track of when the form is using opponent A or opponent B. And just how many imaginary opponents are forms designed to include? As many as necessary to fit the direction changes and stuff? (Possibly assuming that you've dispatched one for the remainder of the fight before you take on the next one.) Or are you sticking to one opponent with unusual direction changes (say) just part of training for fast turns, keeping balance, or whatever? Or does it depend on the form?

This is a concept I've heard of before, the imaginary opponent in forms. But I don't know if there's just one or many. It would be easier to think of one, but some parts don't seem to work if there's only one. Can anyone provide some additional information about this? I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I was wondering about this and didn't see any obvious thread about it on a quick search of the forum. It's not really style specific, so I figured I'd post it here.



This is a concept I've heard of before, the imaginary opponent in forms. But I don't know if there's just one or many. It would be easier to think of one, but some parts don't seem to work if there's only one. Can anyone provide some additional information about this? I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

Being that the term imaginary can mean anything, you are welcome to imagine you are fighting the entire Swedish Bikini Team, or just one that is very fast.[She's a Keeper]. Seriously, I would try imagining both to see what you come up with.
Sean

 

[Bod]

Don't forget a half turn could simulate a throw against an opponent still facing the same way.

 

[DavidCC]

"Well, sometimes I think about this for forms I know. I try to figure out how the moves might be used in actual combat sequences..."

My Instructor teaches forms in such a way that these are the exact points he uses to teach it. We learn the application of each piece of the form as we go, and work them until they make sense to us. So it often takes a month or more to learn a new form. I've been training for about 3 years and I know 7 (of our 10 kyu-level) kata. You should ask your instructor these things...

But also I still discover new applications in the forms I know (new to me anyways, I have yet to find one that he had not already worked through and just not shown me)

 

[MJS]

There are often, many different meanings behind the various moves. I agree with David...ask your instructor what the meaning is behind the move.

As for the change in direction...it could be many things. Turning to face a new opp., using the move just prior to the turning as a throw in a different direction.

Mike

 

[Dronak]

Asking the teacher is a good idea, of course. Unfortunately, he moved back to his home country of Taiwan last year. So it would be kind of difficult to do so now. He did teach us about applications of moves. Maybe not every single one because some have obvious applications, a block and punch combo for example. But sometimes when the applications were less obvious, he'd explain why they were done that way so that we'd be better able to understand and remember the moves. So we've talked about this in individual moves or maybe short combinations. I think I can pick those out in forms. But every form is made up of many such move sequences. When I try to imagine the entire form as a fight, all the techniques and move sequences together, I have trouble figuring out how many imaginary opponents there are supposed to be and how I'm switching between them. I was wondering if there's any sort of rule of thumb as to how many imaginary opponents forms are designed to use.

 

[CMack11]

IIRC, many of our 7* forms are designed with more than one attacker in mind.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I was wondering about this and didn't see any obvious thread about it on a quick search of the forum. It's not really style specific, so I figured I'd post it here.

One of the things I've heard/read or been told is that one aspect of martial art forms is that they often simulate combat sequences. So when you're practicing, you're supposed to keep this in mind and imagine there's an opponent you're fighting. Well, sometimes I think about this for forms I know. I try to figure out how the moves might be used in actual combat sequences. I have a bit of a problem/concern though. Sometimes changes of directions in the form don't seem to make sense if you have a single imaginary opponent. Say you finish a sequence in one direction, then make a half turn for the next. Did your opponent run around you really, really fast? I don't think so, that doesn't seem reasonable. Is there supposed to be a second imaginary opponent then? That seems plausible, but I really have no idea of how to keep track of when the form is using opponent A or opponent B. And just how many imaginary opponents are forms designed to include? As many as necessary to fit the direction changes and stuff? (Possibly assuming that you've dispatched one for the remainder of the fight before you take on the next one.) Or are you sticking to one opponent with unusual direction changes (say) just part of training for fast turns, keeping balance, or whatever? Or does it depend on the form?

This is a concept I've heard of before, the imaginary opponent in forms. But I don't know if there's just one or many. It would be easier to think of one, but some parts don't seem to work if there's only one. Can anyone provide some additional information about this? I'd appreciate the help. Thanks.

Ok,

I might offend some with this ,but it's not my intentions. Too many instructors don't have the full understanding of their own art and pass on alot of....well CRAP!!!

I've done JMA as well as CMA and i've heard that before and it's really crap.

Forms are used for many reasons, but you should "NEVER" use them as a fight sequence! This is what leads to people misunderstanding their art and not being able to apply their techniques in combat. Forms give you an idea of how to flow from technique to technique smoothly ,but you adapt the techniques to your own style.

Most ppl try to fight using a form, that is almost impossible. It can be done,but your skill level has to be so high that it's rarely even attempted. You have to break down the techniques of the form and then use those that feel natural to you, not every technique in a form can be done/used by everyone.
This is why it's important to drill and work applications of every technique in a form. But too many just practice a form and move on to the next without ever really knowing the form inside out.

Thus the reason so many are not able to apply their attacks on a real opponet, but resort to basicly kickboxing when they fight or spar. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with kickboxing,if your're a kickboxer trained that way. But there is something wrong when you've trained a traditional style and you fight like a kickboxer, that means that 80% of your techniques aren't even being used in fighting/sparring.

jeff

 

[arnisador]

Thus the reason so many are not able to apply their attacks on a real opponet, but resort to basicly kickboxing when they fight or spar. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with kickboxing,if your're a kickboxer trained that way. But there is something wrong when you've trained a traditional style and you fight like a kickboxer, that means that 80% of your techniques aren't even being used in fighting/sparring.

This is a good point, and I agree. But I'm still not clear on how you view the forms. You say one must work applications of every technique in a form, and I agree...but in doing so, you have an opponent. Do you mean it must always be two-person practice? If so, what would be the point of the solo form itself?

 

[Dronak]

Forms give you an idea of how to flow from technique to technique smoothly ,but you adapt the techniques to your own style.

Most ppl try to fight using a form, that is almost impossible. You have to break down the techniques of the form and then use those that feel natural to you, not every technique in a form can be done/used by everyone.
This is why it's important to drill and work applications of every technique in a form.

I agree that you couldn't use a whole form as is in a real fight and I don't think any of us were suggesting that you try to. But you probably could use some of the individual techniques. And a form as a sequence of techniques is simulating a fight, no? Anyway, if you're going to practice these techniques in solo forms, you're going to want to imagine there's an opponent so that you can think about the applications of each move. Do you imagine a new opponent with every technique or what?

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

This is a good point, and I agree. But I'm still not clear on how you view the forms. You say one must work applications of every technique in a form, and I agree...but in doing so, you have an opponent. Do you mean it must always be two-person practice? If so, what would be the point of the solo form itself?

arnisador,

Remember forms are a tool, you need to know the tool and the jobs it can do inside & out before you attempt to use a tool. You don't use a hammer to tighten a phillips head screw....right?!?!

The forms are a way of showing you a large amount of material in a manner that is easy to remember. In material... i mean tecchniques,flow,etc...

It would take alot more time to show you all the material within a style, if they had to be shown to you one by one. Forms were used to show you the techniques,methods,theroy,etc... all in one direct pattern, that could be practiced without your sifu/teacher/partner being present. You could become familiar with each technique.

At some point, yes you need to have some two man work sparring/fighting.

You can practice throwing a punch without someone being there, you can practice any technique getting use to which feels more comfortable to you, that's why a form contains so many movements. That is why ppl like Bruce Lee said take what's useful and disgard the rest, but ppl read that statement the wrong way.

I can throw a arrow punch a thousand times without hitting someone, that's where the memory part comes in, that's where getting use to proper alignment comes in. Then after you have the movemnt and power right, you work on applying it in sparring. This is what is meant by making each technique yours also.

The way forms are taught today , is not the way they were intended to be taught. Forms were always taught at full speed and power, so you knew what the intended speed,power, and flow was. Then after you found techniques that felt natural to you, you would use those within your own fighting style. Not everyone is going to move the same, so that's why making each technique yours is so important.

Did i explain that ok?

Sometimes it's so hard to write what you're actually trying to say.

jeff

 

[arnisador]

Yes, I follow you. George Dillman explains the utility of forms in a very similar way. (I know he's controversial--I'm not trying to pull in that controversy. I've just heard him explain it in person.) I am largely in agreement with you. I just wasn't quite clear on what you meant before!

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

I agree that you couldn't use a whole form as is in a real fight and I don't think any of us were suggesting that you try to. But you probably could use some of the individual techniques.

Believe it or not it can be done, i've seen it done in a sparring session. But like i said, your skill level and understanding of the form,style,methods,techniques, etc... has to be pretty high. Of course that means adapting on the run those 180 degree turns that you do in a form. You're not gonna turn and face east and start fighting, if your opponent is to your southwest...

And a form as a sequence of techniques is simulating a fight, no?

Yes and No:whip: lol

It's so hard to put this stuff in words, i could tell you in person or show alot better.

A form is a sequence of material showing you.... that material at a speed,flow,angle,power, etc... that fits the methods,princples,therioes of your system or style. If your style is constantly attacking in it's principles? Then the form is gonna link alot of material that fits those principles, in a manner that is always attacking. Then from that material you find which techniques fit your own style,method of fighting, and add that to your skill set. You don't try to hold on to every technique.

Anyway, if you're going to practice these techniques in solo forms, you're going to want to imagine there's an opponent so that you can think about the applications of each move. Do you imagine a new opponent with every technique or what?

Yes a visual aid is ok to help, just don't get into a practice of thinking or planning on how a person is gonna counter. That is counterproductive..because you're looking to link block A with punch A and such ,and now you're spending too much time thinking when sparring/fighting. Thus throwing off your natural response or counter to an attack, so instead of attacking, you've made yourself a deffensive fighter.

Then also factor in you're looking for punch A or Kick B and they never come? So that's why you don't want to spend too much time on imaginary visual opponents.


jeff

 

[Dronak]

Hmm. It seems to me that to use a form in a fight, not only do you need to adjust some moves, but the opponent would have to be attacking and defending in a rather set sequence in order to match the form you're doing. Maybe at a high enough level, you don't need your opponent to cooperate, but it still seems difficult to stick to the set form if your opponent decides to do something completely different than the form would expect.

True, you don't want to get stuck thinking about what to do or waiting and expecting specific moves. But it seems to me that forms are meant to train the techniques, things like a block and strike combination, to a point where they're instinctive. That way if someone throws a punch at you, you can instantly reply with an appropriate block/strike combo. It seems like it would be helpful, when practicing, to keep in mind where an opponent would be when doing the combination. That way you know where his blocked arm goes and where your strike goes in relation to it (e.g., over or under) when you use a block/strike combo, for example. I rarely visualize opponents, but I thought that doing so might help me keep in mind the purpose of the moves and how they're used rather than simply how they're performed. That's why I was wondering how many imaginary people you need to fill out the form.

 

[FearlessFreep]

The only time I really think of an imaginary opponent in a fprm is when I'm blocking to imagine that there is a limb, etc...there to block against, or when I'm striking to imagine the target (face, chest, whatever). This helps me to remember to strike, and block, with speed and power and not just go through the motions

 

[D.Cobb]

I agree that you couldn't use a whole form as is in a real fight and I don't think any of us were suggesting that you try to. But you probably could use some of the individual techniques. And a form as a sequence of techniques is simulating a fight, no? Anyway, if you're going to practice these techniques in solo forms, you're going to want to imagine there's an opponent so that you can think about the applications of each move. Do you imagine a new opponent with every technique or what?

A form or kata is simply a collection of moves that happened to work for the guy who created it. He put them together in a sequence so that he could drill these 'working moves' everyday. You can train them a sequential combinations, or you can train them as a collection of finishing moves. That is, he put together a drill of moves that he found useful for finishing off his opponents and that drill is now your form or kata.

Of course this is just my opinion and I could be totally wrong, in which case I'd just say, do it as you see fit, then do it until it feels 100% right.

--Dave

 

[michaeledward]

Mr. Planas tells me that:

"Kenpo forms do not represent a fight. They teach you the rules and principles of motion; that everything has a reverse and an opposite, and gives you and example."

I know you weren't asking specifically about kenpo forms, but this seems pretty significant.

Mike

 

[VSanhodo]

HI Folks

When I began training years ago Mr. Tanaka would teach us our forms, We would learn well enough to perform them. Then over time he would teach very very basic Bunkai. He would often teel us Kata is like the ABC's. Once letter by itself has meaning but when combined with other movements it takes on new and larger meaning. If you use kata and try to fight 3, 4 etc opponets and think kata is going to work. You deserve to get beat up. Ive seen So called Grand Masters explain Kata and truly believe your going to fight exactly like the kata. Perhaps one move. Fights are fulid and free flowing. Personally, I believe there are times when it is necessary to use movements from various kata as one technique.
Kata is a very touchy subject, hard to explain and hard to do but well worth the effort of practicing. I believe in the 3 K's of Karate Kihon, Kata & Kumite. Of the 3 Kata is the least understood and the most bastardized. Several years ago I taught a seminar where I broke up the group into 3 even groups. Then, I gave them the choice of what they wanted to work on. Fundamental, Kata or kumite. Now let me be fair this was a modern sport karate based school that taught free sparring, Musical kata, musical weapons forms etc. none of which I practice but the school owner is a friend of mine. So anyway the vast majority of ppl wanted to work on fighting, 98% of the balance wanted to work on their fundamentals, If I recall correctly of the 150 + students who were there probably less than 10 wanted to work on kata.
Me, I love kata, Bunkai and the the 3K's. Allow me if I may to make a final point. Just because someone runs or owns a school or just because they wear a black belt does not mean they know or understand kata. Over the years Ive done numerous seminars and honest to God I can count the number of instructors on one hand that have even a remote clue how to perform kata and know what and how to look for while trying to understand kata. Sad but true.
Thanks
San

 

[Dronak]

I know you weren't asking specifically about kenpo forms, but this seems pretty significant.

In the case of kenpo, certainly. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the same for all other styles. It could be, but I wouldn't assume that what holds for kenpo also holds for the northern Shaolin long fist kung fu that I've been learning.

 

[c2kenpo]

Well after getting back in the mix again I"ll make my first post in a year. A form is a Exercise in motion designed to take you from one place to the next usingthe information or skills you have to the next. Yes forms use imaginary opponents as tho a fight were taking place but that is where the
Exercise is.

I am a Kenpoist so lets use Short 3 as an example. For those not familiar with Short 3 it is a Form designed to start putting the words (techniques) together to make a free flowing form or what would look like a multiple man attack. I can use this one form in several ways to teach and learn

1. Fast - going as fast as I can to improve fast twitch muscles
2. Performance - As tho I was doing a tournament or showing it to an audience making emphasis in certain areas of the form.
3. Power - Showing each place that I want to emphasize Power or some other attitude.
4. Tai Chi style as to focus on proper posture and body alignment and positioning.
5. Environmental - Doing it in sand or on gravel forcing my feet to adjust due to unstable elements

This is to show what a form can be.. but it is simply an exercise. I would never be able to say Short 3 would be a fighting pattern, it could be but that would of course have to have every single thing happen the same way the from is practiced, so we will trow out that idea. IN a real world application You will most likely never get a full technique off on a human being if you have the proper principles of motion and posture 1-2 hits maybe the 3rd but then we are in a new topic. So use your forms as a TOOL of TRAINING to improve.

The next evolution of Forms is creation this is where you have to take your knowledge base and create a form. Sounds easy but then apply the smaller layers of knowledge such as how many opponents , environment , where they will fall , angles, possibilities etc etc.. and the FORM becomes a thinking exercise to help teach APPLICATION and allow you to find what works best for your system of training.

So yes my opinion is forms are not only a great teaching tool for techniques but the basics of any system and they also give the grand evolution of Critical Thinking so we can learn to apply what we know but be able to go to WHATS NEXT.