Meditation in Motion

[pete]

it is advertised virtually everywhere that Tai Chi Chuan is meditation in motion. personally, i don't buy it... but, i do believe that Tai Chi can facilitate one's meditation practice, and conversely meditation enhances one's Tai Chi.

when a beginner is thinking ahead to try and remember the next move or sequence in the form, he is not in the moment... or when one with more experience is visualizing martial applications on imaginary opponents, she is not in reality. i am not discounting either of these as methods of practice, however, they are both in direct opposition to any sort of meditation in motion.

so, how do you integrate meditation within your tai chi chuan practice?

pete

 

[mfinn]

I have been taught to make a distinction between "meditation" and "concentration." The latter means as total a focus as possible on reproducing the form from memory without thinking, just following. This is obviously quite difficult. A teacher once said to me that I had " a mind like a monkey, a heart like a horse." Maybe I have improved somewhat in that department.

Meditation is "quiet sitting" with no movement. My teacher just says "no thinking..." Which is REALLY difficult.

But the point is that these are separate. In fact, I have ben taught that meditation should most properly be done between 11 pm and 1 am, not in the morning, which is the time for vigorous exercise, not sitting meditation.

This whole "moving meditation" is just going in the wrong -- translated: New Age -- direction, IMHO.

 

[oxy]

when a beginner is thinking ahead to try and remember the next move or sequence in the form, he is not in the moment... or when one with more experience is visualizing martial applications on imaginary opponents, she is not in reality. i am not discounting either of these as methods of practice, however, they are both in direct opposition to any sort of meditation in motion.

But the fact you say "beginner" means you aren't really comparing similar things.

Yes, a beginner will think ahead and visualise etc etc.

So will a beginner in meditation concentrate on breathing.

As they practice more, they converge on that "living in the moment" thing.

You can do that in meditation and practicing Taiji (or other internal arts).

So yes, what beginners do cannot count as high level meditation, but the progression from beginner to advanced is still the same.

Hence, Taiji (and other internal arts) are still moving meditations.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I have been taught to make a distinction between "meditation" and "concentration." The latter means as total a focus as possible on reproducing the form from memory without thinking, just following. This is obviously quite difficult. A teacher once said to me that I had " a mind like a monkey, a heart like a horse." Maybe I have improved somewhat in that department.

Meditation is "quiet sitting" with no movement. My teacher just says "no thinking..." Which is REALLY difficult.

But the point is that these are separate. In fact, I have ben taught that meditation should most properly be done between 11 pm and 1 am, not in the morning, which is the time for vigorous exercise, not sitting meditation.

This whole "moving meditation" is just going in the wrong -- translated: New Age -- direction, IMHO.

A form of any sort requires focus and concentration otherwise it drifts and becomes indistinct.

Meditation requires neither focus nor concentration, in fact, just the opposite. When meditating one should seek to not hold to any thought that crosses one's mind. It is impossible to not think, but it is possible to not attach to any thoughts, at least for a while.

Therefore taiji cannot be meditation in motion. Its simply not possible. A New Age concoction? Yeah, I think so.

 

[pete]

thanks for the responses thus far, allow me to elaborate a little more...

tai chi chuan to be effective as a fighting art requires dedication and practice to developing an heightened sense of awareness. i'll go out on a limb and assume that all would agree that the elimination/reduction of stiffness/tension in the body along with a calm/uncluttered mind would benefit your overall awareness.

but, tai chi alone is not moving meditation. it doens't have to be. but i believe that for reasons above, meditation should be learned and, at the correct time in one's practice, inserted into your tai chi chuan.

there are several methods that i know to do this, i am interested in other's experiences. is this 'just wrong?', i don't think so... think 'martial awareness'.

pete

 

[oxy]

thanks for the responses thus far, allow me to elaborate a little more...

tai chi chuan to be effective as a fighting art requires dedication and practice to developing an heightened sense of awareness. i'll go out on a limb and assume that all would agree that the elimination/reduction of stiffness/tension in the body along with a calm/uncluttered mind would benefit your overall awareness.

but, tai chi alone is not moving meditation. it doens't have to be. but i believe that for reasons above, meditation should be learned and, at the correct time in one's practice, inserted into your tai chi chuan.

there are several methods that i know to do this, i am interested in other's experiences. is this 'just wrong?', i don't think so... think 'martial awareness'.

pete

I can't/won't say whether it's right or wrong because we simply haven't/can't perform an empirical study on the effectiveness of "moving meditation" vs "martial awareness" Taiji as a martial art.

My view comes from my LHBF study. We were taught to perfect our postures and form (in the martial sense, of course) so that we can meditate while still doing the form perfectly. That's the hard part: how can you tell you did the form perfectly while you're supposed to be meditating (not thinking about anything). The easiest way is to get a third party opinion (like your sifu), but I have been able to track myself while not thinking a few times. I'm not consistent, but it does work from time to time.

I find training towards this level allows the whole martial art to become one big natural reflex.

There have been many posts on this board (unless I was hallucinating) and others that talk about the dangers of thinking while in a fight. I can't see a better way to train your body so that you don't need to think in a fight than to practice the art to the point you can meditate while doing it perfectly. I think that would really help in gaining "martial awareness".

So I agree that Taiji is not moving meditation alone (I think that's what you were trying to say).

 

[pete]

oxy, i think we are real close on this, but:

1. nothing is ever perfect, and even if it is once, you'll never have that same perfection again (ie, your standards are now raised, you understand more and begin to identify other defects... "it is, it isn't, it is"). so while agree that the physical piece needs to be at a certain level, perfection may be a bridge too far.

2. i actually see the dangers in the inability to think during a fight. sure, your actions should be reflexive to some degree, and through meditation you will be able to keep a calm awareness and sensitivity to stimulii and catalysts during the altercation... however, this goes to free your primary consciousness to direct the intent of your overall fighting strategy, issue appropriate response, escalate, de-escalate, exit, re-enter, etc...

3. its really not moving meditation vs martial awareness, it is integrating as one. this way the same fighting method can be used to fight inner demon, and better deal with difficult emotional issues, death, loss, uncertainty, etc.

thanks for conversation,
pete

 

[oxy]

oxy, i think we are real close on this, but:

1. nothing is ever perfect, and even if it is once, you'll never have that same perfection again (ie, your standards are now raised, you understand more and begin to identify other defects... "it is, it isn't, it is"). so while agree that the physical piece needs to be at a certain level, perfection may be a bridge too far.

That's not the important point. You are right that standards are raised, knowledge is gained etc.

The important thing is that one is Aiming for perfection. If your standards are raised, etc, the search for perfection continues. Improvement continues to happen. It's not about perfection but keeping up the effort improve.

But this is beside the point. The main idea (as I have learned it) is to be able to technically correct despite your state of mind. In a fight, the "ugly option" is just as valid as the "perfect" option as well, but by aiming for perfection while training (not while fighting) means that the "ugly option" is safe enough to defend and attack in a sound manner.

2. i actually see the dangers in the inability to think during a fight. sure, your actions should be reflexive to some degree, and through meditation you will be able to keep a calm awareness and sensitivity to stimulii and catalysts during the altercation... however, this goes to free your primary consciousness to direct the intent of your overall fighting strategy, issue appropriate response, escalate, de-escalate, exit, re-enter, etc...

I happen to agree about the inability to think during a fight.

There is an element of decision making.

But the main idea is that the decision making mind and the "do this" mind is working in parallel separately.

An example of this would be algebra. You know how to add and multiply. The part of your thinking that goes into solving an algebraic equation is working separately from the [now] automatic thinking process that goes into addition and multiplication.

I would say this is the same with thinking during a fight.

I must say though there is some benefit on continually converging towards a strategy that requires minimal decision making.

3. its really not moving meditation vs martial awareness, it is integrating as one. this way the same fighting method can be used to fight inner demon, and better deal with difficult emotional issues, death, loss, uncertainty, etc.

Not different from my views.

 

[qi-tah]

A form of any sort requires focus and concentration otherwise it drifts and becomes indistinct.

Meditation requires neither focus nor concentration, in fact, just the opposite. When meditating one should seek to not hold to any thought that crosses one's mind. It is impossible to not think, but it is possible to not attach to any thoughts, at least for a while.

Therefore taiji cannot be meditation in motion. Its simply not possible. A New Age concoction? Yeah, I think so.

Hmm.. i know several types of meditation that require focus or concentration on a limited range of stimuli... a mantra, or an image, or a sensation... how are any of these any different to taiji practice? I mean, i'm crap at seated meditation and pretty crap at taiji too, but i do recognise a common core in both - i guess i would call it awareness. Sometimes it is awareness after the fact (if i get too atached to a particular move i'll often find myself dead ended in another form entirely... anyone else do this?), sometimes before (Now i must do this move) and sometimes, just sometimes it all takes place at once... which is kind of the aim of meditation, yeah?

sorry if this is a little garbled... i'm a little tired and probably don't really know what i'm on about

 

[Nyarlathotep]

it is advertised virtually everywhere that Tai Chi Chuan is meditation in motion. personally, i don't buy it... but, i do believe that Tai Chi can facilitate one's meditation practice, and conversely meditation enhances one's Tai Chi.

So what you are saying is that Taiji isn't meditation, but that Taiji aids meditation and viceversa.

I think you'll agree that there are some similarities though.

Meditation is about relaxing the mind, releasing mental tensions and habits while maintaining concentration till it returns to it's natural state.

Taiji is about relaxing the body, releasing physical tensions and habits while maintaining structure until it can act naturally in a connected fashion.

There is obviously much more to both, but lets not get too lost in the intricacies.

So why then shouldn't one be able to meditate while doing Taiji?
And is it so crazy to say that Taiji is to the body what meditation is to the mind?

 

[marlon]

from my limited understanding of taiji, i can say that taiji meditation is usually a qi qong exercise so since the style is internal and built around gathering qi and using qi (fa jing is one use) then it makes sense. If you are thinking of Transendental meditation and the like then no. but i would not remove the statement from the context of taiji and chinese culture

respectfully,m
marlon

 

[Captain Harlock]

When the student is learning, concentration exists while he learns the movements.

Once the movements are a part of you, you can lose yourself to their pleasure, truly feeling them and allow them to guide you.

This frees the mind to go where it will.

This is moving meditation.

If your taiji is pure, it comes, with time and practice.

If you have "fixed" what was not broken, it is however corrupt and interference will occur.

This can not be explained or taught.

It must be developed over time, with practice.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

When the student is learning, concentration exists while he learns the movements.

Once the movements are a part of you, you can lose yourself to their pleasure, truly feeling them and allow them to guide you.

This frees the mind to go where it will.

Absolutely not!

Losing one'self and letting the mind drift as it will are the hallmarks of our normal state of consciousness.

Meditation is about training one's own mind so that it doesn't drift about and you are aware of yourself.


Big difference.

In Taiji the body then follows the mind, not vice-versa.
The idea that meditation and/or Taiji is a daydreamy thing is a corrosive and wooly New Age notion.

 

[Franzfri]

When the student is learning, concentration exists while he learns the movements.

Once the movements are a part of you, you can lose yourself to their pleasure, truly feeling them and allow them to guide you.

This frees the mind to go where it will.

This is moving meditation.

If your taiji is pure, it comes, with time and practice.

If you have "fixed" what was not broken, it is however corrupt and interference will occur.

This can not be explained or taught.

It must be developed over time, with practice.

I tend to agree with Captain Harlock. When I finish my Tai Ji or Chi Gong practice I have a great sense of well being. I sometimes am lost in the movements and continue by muscle memory alone. If this is "New Age" so be it. It centers me and calms me. I am not one for stationery meditation althoug we do stationery standing meditation in Chi Gong it involves feeling the chi move though the body.

 

[oxy]

I tend to agree with Captain Harlock. When I finish my Tai Ji or Chi Gong practice I have a great sense of well being. I sometimes am lost in the movements and continue by muscle memory alone. If this is "New Age" so be it.

That you sometimes lose yourself in the movements is not what makes it "New Agey".

If I understand Nyarlathotep correctly, what makes it "New Agey" is the perception that meditation is about losing focus and mind-wandering.

In LHBF at least (and, from reading some of other people's posts, Taiji), Yi (intention or something like it) guides the body. Yi is the first thing to move. My LHBF teacher always reminded us: Qi follows Yi.

Of course, don't mistake Yi as being the attempt to be technically correct in posture, application. It's more general than that, but it still requires a lot of effort that is similar to proper meditation.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I tend to agree with Captain Harlock. When I finish my Tai Ji or Chi Gong practice I have a great sense of well being. I sometimes am lost in the movements and continue by muscle memory alone. If this is "New Age" so be it. It centers me and calms me. I am not one for stationery meditation althoug we do stationery standing meditation in Chi Gong it involves feeling the chi move though the body.

It's good that you feel pleasure after acting naturally and releasing physical tension, this is as it should be.

However going through the physical motions of your Taiji form with a wandering mind is not (as you put it) centered, by definition, though it may be very relaxing.

Finally if Taiji is to be used practically, then it really does help to have a clear mind.
It's hard to act appropriately while daydreaming about what you would like for dinner or your significant other's birthday present.

 

[NanFeiShen]

it is advertised virtually everywhere that Tai Chi Chuan is meditation in motion. personally, i don't buy it... but, i do believe that Tai Chi can facilitate one's meditation practice, and conversely meditation enhances one's Tai Chi.

IMHO, i regard my Taiji practice not so much as "meditation in motion", but rather "moving meditation".
In other words, if I am tense or stressed, i can practice my Taiji as a moving meditation to relieve my tension and stress, and to calm my jumbled thoughts and emotions. It gives me something to focus on other than my worries. By focusing on the movements and postures, i "push" the worries and stresses out of my mind and body, thereby calming my mind with the movement.

 

[pete]

Meditation is about relaxing the mind, releasing mental tensions and habits while maintaining concentration till it returns to it's natural state.

Taiji is about relaxing the body, releasing physical tensions and habits while maintaining structure until it can act naturally in a connected fashion.

There is obviously much more to both, but lets not get too lost in the intricacies.

So why then shouldn't one be able to meditate while doing Taiji?

cool. one should be able to, but its not an 'automatic'. learn and understand meditation, learn and understand tai chi... put 'em together. voila.

Once the movements are a part of you, you can lose yourself to their pleasure, truly feeling them and allow them to guide you.

This frees the mind to go where it will.

no, this is not what i do or would advocate. this is fantasy tripping.

In Taiji the body then follows the mind, not vice-versa.The idea that meditation and/or Taiji is a daydreamy thing is a corrosive and wooly New Age notion

yep. not sure what 'new age' is??? but in this context, doesn't sound good.

i can practice my Taiji as a moving meditation to relieve my tension and stress, and to calm my jumbled thoughts and emotions. It gives me something to focus on other than my worries. By focusing on the movements and postures, i "push" the worries and stresses out of my mind and body, thereby calming my mind with the movement.

this is good, however rather than push the worries and stress out, which implies force and effort, try allowing them to run their normal course and dissolve effortlessly. its kinda like by pushing you are validating those worries, rather than just letting go of them.

Finally if Taiji is to be used practically, then it really does help to have a clear mind.

YES!!! so how is Tai Chi used 'practically' (NanFeiShen is onto one of 'em), what are training methods to integrate meditation into practical training, and how do these methods distinguish Tai Chi as an internal art?


pete

 

[Captain Harlock]

Absolutely not!

Losing one'self and letting the mind drift as it will are the hallmarks of our normal state of consciousness.

Meditation is about training one's own mind so that it doesn't drift about and you are aware of yourself.


Big difference.

In Taiji the body then follows the mind, not vice-versa.
The idea that meditation and/or Taiji is a daydreamy thing is a corrosive and wooly New Age notion.

There is a difference between a free mind, and a drifting mind. My words were chosen carefully. I did not advocate day dreaming nor random drifting nor 'New Age' notions. Please reread them, and what is below.

no, this is not what i do or would advocate. this is fantasy tripping.


yep. not sure what 'new age' is??? but in this context, doesn't sound good.

There is nothing 'fantasy' about it, nor is it 'new age'.

You do not understand.

I will teach.

I stated "When the student is learning, concentration exists while he learns the movements. "

This is truth. As a learner, you are not meditating. You are learning. Your mind is focused on memorizing. It is not free of distraction, it is distracted by the act of learning.

I stated "Once the movements are a part of you, you can lose yourself to their pleasure, truly feeling them and allow them to guide you. "

You confuse this with chaotic randomness.

It is not.

It is truth. Once you have learned the movements, and made them a true part of you, where you do them instinctivly, you are able to reach a deeper place. It can be a pleasant, relaxing, unique feeling. The movements guide you, in a manner. Your mind, both leads and follows.

I stated "This frees the mind to go where it will. "

This is also truth.
Free of the distraction of trying to remember the next movement, your mind can go where it goes. Deeper.

As distractions disappear, you achieve the ability to see deeper, to feel deeper, to experience deeper. You appear lost in the movements, you are as one with the movements until you achieve it.

This one cannot guide you further through this medium.

Clearer I cannot be.

The journey is a personal one.

If more clarity is desired, a competent instructor of a pure lineage should be sought.

Not one who has 'fixed' what was not broken.

 

[pete]

cap'n harlock, my cause is not to put labels on what it is that you do. but i do think i understand. let me refer back to my last questions, and please allow me to ask that you explain how what you do applies:

how is Tai Chi used 'practically' (NanFeiShen is onto one of 'em), what are training methods to integrate meditation into practical training, and how do these methods distinguish Tai Chi as an internal art?

this being a martial arts forum, and tai chi chuan a martial art, i was hoping that conversation would tie this topic tighter. Not to diminish NanFeiShen's "stress release", as that is also valid, and in some regards a higher level of the art, i am interested in training methods that integrate meditation with martial practice, which i believe to be one of the bases of internal martial arts.

pete