Foot Fist Way

[andyjeffries]

I remember watching this film (after getting over the initial indignation of it being about my beloved art) and thinking "it's OK, no one really sounds/acts like that". Then I saw this video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KxK_uJ4q68

I don't know if it's the pronunciation of kyungrye ("coon-yay") or the deep sitting stances or "because you're black belts you're going to do...15". It might even be the crazy deep sparring stances...

I also know I'm not supposed to laugh at other martial artists (but to be honest I'm in limbo between laughing and crying so I don't think it counts) but this video really brings home how true "Foot Fist Way" could be in some parts of the world...

 

[terryl965]

I guess each there own, I mean who am I to judge what other people see as value.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think it's (mostly) hilarious and even has some interesting lessons you can take from it.

First, consider that I'm not a TKD guy; but I see this in the light of strip-mall McDojos, not TKD qua TKD.

As a movie, it's uneven. Some parts are funny, some gross, some over-the-top. Low-budget flicks can be like that.

But consider this:

It shows that there is a problem with predation in martial arts training centers. I know no one likes to talk about this, but it exists. Google News can list MA instructors arrested somewhere in the world every single day, almost. It's sickening and we as MA people DO NOT TALK ABOUT IT. If it's brought up, the thread dies.

It shows that MA training - even training that is not the best - can be useful and effective. Consider the 'party' fight. Those kids kicked A.

It shows that everyone is in MA for different reasons, and no one gets the same things out of it. Self-defense, exercise, fellowship, some even become part of a 'cult of personality' in some cases.

It shows that MA is as much a business as it is a system of self-defense. I brought this topic up once as a separate thread - very controversial - I defended the 'McDojo' concept as a business model. No, it's not the best MA if you love MA and want to teach MA and business just isn't important to you. But from what I can see, if you run an MA training center like a business and not like an effort of personal love, you can make a lot of money - it's a good business to be in. That doesn't mean I want to train at a McDojo, it means I recognize it's as much a 'business' as an art that is taught. Like a state university versus a private technical school. One is in business to teach a basis with an emphasis without regard to profit (other than not costing the taxpayers a lot). The other is strictly profit-based, and if their graduates are not able to parse Latin or spell correctly, they don't care much about that as long as they can do what they were trained to do, like configure a router or weld a straight line.

Yeah, I like the movie on a lot of levels. I understand why some find it deeply offensive, but I think it can be useful in a lot of contexts. And some of the funny parts are REALLY funny.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I love the movie. Sadly, I have seen too many clubs like that in real life, but if people train at clubs like that and have fun, make friends, get fit and learn a little self defence along the way, then good on them.

 

[Dragons TKD]

I remember watching this film (after getting over the initial indignation of it being about my beloved art) and thinking "it's OK, no one really sounds/acts like that". Then I saw this video on YouTube:

I don't know if it's the pronunciation of kyungrye ("coon-yay") or the deep sitting stances or "because you're black belts you're going to do...15". It might even be the crazy deep sparring stances...

I also know I'm not supposed to laugh at other martial artists (but to be honest I'm in limbo between laughing and crying so I don't think it counts) but this video really brings home how true "Foot Fist Way" could be in some parts of the world...

Say what you will about the movie and the instruction in this youtube video... there is no doubt that those kids in the youtube link are pretty darn good.

 

[Omar B]

I love that movie. I'm a big fan of Danny McBride, that guy is priceless and no modern comedy actor plays the a-hole like him. Have you checked out his series Eastbound and Down? That show is brutal!

BTW, on a sidenote. Jody Hill, the director is actually a TKD black belt. It's a movie he's had stewing in the back of his head for years because of the McDojos.

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=772
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/36927?q=node/36941

 

[Rumy73]

I remember watching this film (after getting over the initial indignation of it being about my beloved art) and thinking "it's OK, no one really sounds/acts like that". Then I saw this video on YouTube:

I don't know if it's the pronunciation of kyungrye ("coon-yay") or the deep sitting stances or "because you're black belts you're going to do...15". It might even be the crazy deep sparring stances...

I also know I'm not supposed to laugh at other martial artists (but to be honest I'm in limbo between laughing and crying so I don't think it counts) but this video really brings home how true "Foot Fist Way" could be in some parts of the world...

The deep stances are traditional. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do use them. The are effective in certain tactical situations. My problem is with children being black belts. They simply do not have the maturity - nor do most teens. Black belt should be the highest level of control and humility. These qualities often are at odds with youth. Since our societies are "goal oriented" and not values oriented, martial arts schools have had to adapt to get students.

BTW, the movie you mentioned is a riot.

 

[puunui]

[/quote]The deep stances are traditional. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do use them.

That isn't how GM LEE Won Kuk taught Tang Soo Do back in the 1940's. GM Lee's style was more about narrow, natural, comfortable stances, substantially similar to the Kukkiwon's current technical methodology. That deep long wide stance is from an intermediate stage of Taekwondo's development, when Taekwondo practitioners were visiting Japan on exchange trips in the late 50's/early to mid 60's.

 

[puunui]

My problem is with children being black belts. They simply do not have the maturity - nor do most teens. Black belt should be the highest level of control and humility. These qualities often are at odds with youth.

Is that your level of expectation for 1st Dans? If so, what are your expectations for higher dan levels, if you are already at the "highest level of control and humility"? Where do you go from that standard?

Personally, I view a 1st Poom or 1st Dan as the lowest level on a scale that grades from 1 through 10. My expectations of what a 1st Poom/Dan can or cannot do is based with that in mind. I want to see growth and change, in much the same way that I would want to see growth and change as someone advances from a butter bar to a four or five star general.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The deep stances are traditional. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do use them.

That isn't how GM LEE Won Kuk taught Tang Soo Do back in the 1940's. GM Lee's style was more about narrow, natural, comfortable stances, substantially similar to the Kukkiwon's current technical methodology. That deep long wide stance is from an intermediate stage of Taekwondo's development, when Taekwondo practitioners were visiting Japan on exchange trips in the late 50's/early to mid 60's.

It was my understanding that it was Funakoshi's son that introduced the deep stances and that Funakoshi utilized higher, narrower stances.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I remember watching this film (after getting over the initial indignation of it being about my beloved art) and thinking "it's OK, no one really sounds/acts like that". Then I saw this video on YouTube:

I don't know if it's the pronunciation of kyungrye ("coon-yay") or the deep sitting stances or "because you're black belts you're going to do...15". It might even be the crazy deep sparring stances...

I also know I'm not supposed to laugh at other martial artists (but to be honest I'm in limbo between laughing and crying so I don't think it counts) but this video really brings home how true "Foot Fist Way" could be in some parts of the world...

I have seen foot fist way and aside from that it takes place in a commercial dojang that seems patterned after the ATA, I just don't see the similarity.

Nor did I see enough in this video to really tear the school apart. They're American kids with black belts and they looked about how I expect American kids with black belts to look like. Not the best, but I've certainly seen worse.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Say what you will about the movie and the instruction in this youtube video... there is no doubt that those kids in the youtube link are pretty darn good.

REALLY? I'd say they're OK for Karate, but they don't look as much like Taekwondo as I think they should. For example, the side kicks (for most of them) were high, but the hip position was Karate-like rather than Taekwondo.

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather they do Taekwondo like that than nothing at all - but it reminds me more of the film than real life than I'd like.

 

[andyjeffries]

The are effective in certain tactical situations.

Can you give some examples of tactical situations where, for example, a sitting stance with the knees really bent as those children did them would be effective?

My problem is with children being black belts. They simply do not have the maturity - nor do most teens. Black belt should be the highest level of control and humility. These qualities often are at odds with youth.

I agree with Puunui's comments, 1st Dan/Poom isn't the end goal it's the start of the real journey. That said I wouldn't pass those children at 1st Poom, they don't have the fluidity I'd expect at that level (even for children)...

 

[andyjeffries]

I have seen foot fist way and aside from that it takes place in a commercial dojang that seems patterned after the ATA, I just don't see the similarity.

Nor did I see enough in this video to really tear the school apart. They're American kids with black belts and they looked about how I expect American kids with black belts to look like. Not the best, but I've certainly seen worse.

I'm surprised. I wouldn't consider them the worst I've seen, but they're a lot closer to that movie than I'd expect people to look in real life (I thought they hammed it up for the movie).

 

[puunui]

It was my understanding that it was Funakoshi's son that introduced the deep stances and that Funakoshi utilized higher, narrower stances.

Funakoshi Sensei's son, Giko Sensei or Waka Sensei, was very focused on weight transfer into his blows. So what he would do is start from a narrow stance and then lunge in very deeply as he was punching, putting his whole weight behind the blow and driving through his opponent. So he would end up in a longer stance. Using this method, he would regularly bust the makiwara post in two. BUT what the students did not realize/understand or maybe forgot (because they were away during WWII for an extended period of time) is that after Waka Sensei did that (step deeply and end up in a long stance), he would drag his back leg up so that he would end up in a short narrow stance again.

This is no different than what Taekwondo competitors do when they kick long, drag their back leg up so that they are in their stance again. Kendo practitioners do the same thing I believe, lunge forward on their front leg, and then drag their back leg up. That dragging your back leg up in order to regain your original stance is a key point that many tend to not emphasize. I think it would be hard to incorporate that movement into kata practice, so instead they stay long and deep, to emphasize the weight transfer, but then leave out the end part of the movement, so that the kata can flow smoothly.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is no different than what Taekwondo competitors do when they kick long, drag their back leg up so that they are in their stance again. Kendo practitioners do the same thing I believe, lunge forward on their front leg, and then drag their back leg up.

Similar. We push off with the back foot, strike as the front foot lands and then bring the back foot in so that we can push past. We don't drop very low, but the weight transfer is definitely there.

Daniel

 

[Archtkd]

I guess each there own, I mean who am I to judge what other people see as value.

Exactly and so long at they don't start preaching to everybody that they, and only they teach something they call "traditional" Tae Kwon Do.

 

[Rumy73]

The deep stances are traditional. Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do use them.

That isn't how GM LEE Won Kuk taught Tang Soo Do back in the 1940's. GM Lee's style was more about narrow, natural, comfortable stances, substantially similar to the Kukkiwon's current technical methodology. That deep long wide stance is from an intermediate stage of Taekwondo's development, when Taekwondo practitioners were visiting Japan on exchange trips in the late 50's/early to mid 60's.[/quote]


We will have to agree to disagree. I've seen Hwang Kee use them like so. And here's where every dispute about the martial arts begins and ends: The lack of source material. How did one school or even one country impact another is largely conjecture. In fact, there is an argument that the martial arts began with the Greeks and came to Asia by the way of Alexander the Great.

 

[Rumy73]

Is that your level of expectation for 1st Dans? If so, what are your expectations for higher dan levels, if you are already at the "highest level of control and humility"? Where do you go from that standard?

Personally, I view a 1st Poom or 1st Dan as the lowest level on a scale that grades from 1 through 10. My expectations of what a 1st Poom/Dan can or cannot do is based with that in mind. I want to see growth and change, in much the same way that I would want to see growth and change as someone advances from a butter bar to a four or five star general.

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I perceive black belt as a recognizable level of mastery and maturity. Can it be improved, of course. However, I think it doesn't belong in the hands of children. That is my opinion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Again, we will have to agree to disagree. I perceive black belt as a recognizable level of mastery and maturity. Can it be improved, of course. However, I think it doesn't belong in the hands of children. That is my opinion.

A recognizable level of mastery and maturity is not the same thing as what you originally said. You said,

Black belt should be the highest level of control and humility.

A recognizable level of mastery and maturity I would associate with a first dan/pum, though what that level should be would need to be defined.

Highest level of control and humility I would not associate with a first dan/pum. Highest level is well beyond low dans/pums.

As for kiddie ranks, I have stated before: pum grades should be wearing pum belts (half red/black) and dan grades should be wearing black belts. Dan grades are only awarded to those fifteen years or older in the kukkiwon, and I do think that a fifteen year old is capable of the maturity and proficiency that I associate with a black belt.

Pum grades are a nice way to bracket kids in competitions and to help to bring them to maturity while still recognizing that they are, well, kids.

Daniel