Why different levels

[terryl965]

In a thread by Karatemom she mentions she is a level one BB, Now I have read some of the responses there and I am a little baffled. mainly because I fully do not see the need or this.What is the main reasoning behind level within rank of a BB? If any of you could give me some fractual info, on why it is needed beside a money maker for the instructor it would be nice, but than again is karatemom or anyone else even being charged for these level would be a question as well?

 

[andyjeffries]

Personally I'm not a fan of levels within dan grades. I think coloured belts (and in particular children) need frequent tests. I think when you get to 1st dan level (which is an instructor grade pretty much anywhere in the world except Korea) then you shouldn't need as frequent "attaboys".

I understand that it takes some weaning out of frequent gradings which is why I like the system of increasing waits between dan ranks rather than just 1-2nd Dan = 5 Years, 2-3rd Dan = 5 years or something.

 

[sfs982000]

Our school with 1st and 2nd dans have both recommended and decided ranks, each rank has it's own test and testing fee. The material doesn't change, it's just more probationary than anything. For all dan ranks there are also midterm testings that one has to complete, the number of midterms depends on your dan ranking. 1st degree has one midterm before 2nd, 2nd degree has 2 midterms, etc....
The lower dan ranks can midterm at the school, but the higher up you are the midterms are conducted at regional and world events.

 

[miguksaram]

There are two reasons I know why some use it. First it is a way to generate testing revenue from your black belts. Please note I am not saying that all schools who do this do it for the money. I am just saying that it a reason that some do it.

The second reason is too keep the black belts on their toes. Look at the time differences between dan ranks. It is good to help them feel progression towards their next goal by establishing markers along the way. Interim tests is a good way of doing this.

 

[chrispillertkd]

As far as there being a need for such interim tests for dan levels, there is none as far as I can see.

By the time the student hits 1st dan they've gone through 9 gup tests, often enough the period between these tests have gradualy lengthened in time and I know many schools where the wait between 2nd and 1st gup is 4-6 months and 1st gup to 1st dan is around 5-6 months. Even if you are waiting a minimum of 2 years between 1st dan and 2nd dan that's not such a huge increase as to be undoable, IMNSHO. In my view developing a sense of delayed gratification is a good thing and isn't really fostered by having people continue to test before actually gaining "real" rank.

The first time I encountered this kind of thing was at a KKW school back in the early 1990s. My reaction then was pretty much what it is now: meh. As far as I can seen most styles categorize rank as either gup or dan so I don't see the point of being (for example) "2 1/2 dan." Then again, I don't see the need for the distinction some people make between chodanbo and il dan. You're either a yudanja or you're not.

I'm sure the biggest problem some people will have in this case will be testing fees. Why should someone have to pay more test fees? I'm all for people being able to make a living teaching martial arts and have no qualms about charging test fees for dan tests. Certifying organizations have to have money to operate, too. I suppose in my view it would be nice if the test fee for these intermediate ranks (if there is any) was applied to the final test fee for the actual advancement in dan rank that the student will actually undergo. Kind of like a savings account for one's next dan test.

Pax,

Chris

 

[hungryninja]

For an ATA example (i.e. what sfs982000 brought up regarding midterms), the midterm costs go towards the final test fee for the actual advancement in rank (in reference to dan ranks). So if you paid for all your midterms, you don't need to pay any additional when you do the actual rank advancement test (basically, the cost of the testing is divided up into the number of midterms required).

I suppose in my view it would be nice if the test fee for these intermediate ranks (if there is any) was applied to the final test fee for the actual advancement in dan rank that the student will actually undergo. Kind of like a savings account for one's next dan test.

Pax,

Chris

 

[mango.man]

At our original school where Sam spent her first 8 years or so Black Belts were actually referred to as dan or poom / gup. So a newly promoted 1st Dan would be referred to as 1st Dan / 10 Gup. After participating in testing 1st Dan / 9th Gup. Etc until 1st Dan / 1st Gup. Then they could test for 2nd Dan.

Now you think to yourself what a money making scam, right?

Well not really, as the Black Belts were never charged for these intermediate "gup ranks"

Instead it was always more about getting the Black Belts involved in testing of the color belts. If you reached Black Belt and never helped out with testing then you stayed a 1st Dan / 10th Gup for a very long time. Those that did show up to help with testing got promoted through the black belt gup ranks quickly and therefore got to 2nd Dan more quickly.

The Black Belts themselves weren't really tested during the Gup testings, beyond their ability to assist and provide pointers to those that were testing as well as to be a sparring partner or board holder. As long as they were there for that, then their "gup" rank was increased.

All Black Belts were required to attend all Black Belt testings which were 2 times a year. So if those were the only testings you showed up to, than you only increased 2 gups a year which made it a long road to 2nd dan as opposed to the 1st dan that showed up for color belt testing every 2 months.

 

[granfire]

It is no different then making it a 'probationary' vs 'decided'

Lvl 3 and 4 actually get a new form...
Also the test frequency isn't as fast anymore. Actually a nice change from the 2 month cycle rush...also, the fees are not as high a in other organizations that make a big whoop out of the belts. In my school I actually came out cheaper with even an increased BB fee vs the colorbelt one...by 5 bucks, but hey...

It's nice to have a mile marker in the endless journey.

 

[stkdh]

We break down 1st and 2nd degree/dan into 3 levels. 3rd and above is just 1. in regards to cost, the 3 lvls of 1st and 2nd are a third of the cost of 3rd to 4th to 5th etc. the idea behind this so students have more frequent goals to set, plus its spreds out the cost of the overall degree/dan. also the reason y its only 1st and 2nd is that after 3rd you must wait 4 yrs before able to go for 4th and we have found over the years that most students either drop out or start to teach. in this cause the pressure of grading is less therefore they can focus on their school (thats if they dont leave obviously)

 

[puunui]

Our school with 1st and 2nd dans have both recommended and decided ranks, each rank has it's own test and testing fee.

And so when you line up according to seniority, do decideds stand before recommendeds, as so forth? How do you tell who is a decided vs. recommended?

 

[granfire]

And so when you line up according to seniority, do decideds stand before recommendeds, as so forth? How do you tell who is a decided vs. recommended?

That would be a given ^_^

Not sure how others do it, but we had P/D/S on the belts before the ITA switched to the lvl system. now you got a L1/L2, etc on the belt below the rank stripes.

When I am not so lazy I take a picture ^_^ (really comes in handy, when, like me, you have trouble remembering what rank and level. I made it to L3...I think 2nd degree...gotta see if I can find the last belt...)


And no, I am not kidding.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

There are two reasons I know why some use it. First it is a way to generate testing revenue from your black belts. Please note I am not saying that all schools who do this do it for the money. I am just saying that it a reason that some do it.

The second reason is too keep the black belts on their toes. Look at the time differences between dan ranks. It is good to help them feel progression towards their next goal by establishing markers along the way. Interim tests is a good way of doing this.

Your second point is a good one. Keeping black belts 'on their toes' does seem to have some merrit. I have met many black belts in both karate and tkd who sort of 'lose their way' a bit while waiting years on end to grade. They can start to lack a bit of motivation, not attend class as often, lose cardio fitness, put on a heap of weight and generally do not maintain the level they reached to pass their last grading. An idea like this could be beneficial to those sorts of black belts, but generally I dont agree with the concept.

 

[chrispillertkd]

It is no different then making it a 'probationary' vs 'decided'

Precisely why I don't care for them You're either a specific rank or you're not, IMO.

Lvl 3 and 4 actually get a new form...
Also the test frequency isn't as fast anymore. Actually a nice change from the 2 month cycle rush...also, the fees are not as high a in other organizations that make a big whoop out of the belts. In my school I actually came out cheaper with even an increased BB fee vs the colorbelt one...by 5 bucks, but hey...

The ITF teaches multiply patterns per dan level but doesn't have various "levels" within dan ranks. I've never seen a problem with that system, personally.

Also, are all of the gup tests taken every two months, including the ones closer to 1st dan (such as 3rd, 2nd, and 1st gup)? Extending the time between gup tests as one increases in rank has the benefit of 1) giving them more time to practice material as it gets harder, and 2) getting them used to waiting longer periods of time for advancement.

Of course, at my school people don't get to test every time there's a promotional test anyway.

It's nice to have a mile marker in the endless journey.

It's why we put Roman Numerals (or rank stripes) on our belts once we hit dan level

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Your second point is a good one. Keeping black belts 'on their toes' does seem to have some merrit. I have met many black belts in both karate and tkd who sort of 'lose their way' a bit while waiting years on end to grade. They can start to lack a bit of motivation, not attend class as often, lose cardio fitness, put on a heap of weight and generally do not maintain the level they reached to pass their last grading. An idea like this could be beneficial to those sorts of black belts, but generally I dont agree with the concept.

That just means they'll need to get back into practice if they want to promote. People should really be more self-motivated by the time they hit dan level, IMO. Besides, there's no law that says you have to promote after the minimum time requirements are up. If you're not ready, you're not ready. Take an extra 6 months and work on polishing up the areas that need work. Martial arts is a life long endeavor and people here on MT always talk about rank being unimportant so taking time to advance shouldn't be a problem.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Personally I'm not a fan of levels within dan grades. I think coloured belts (and in particular children) need frequent tests. I think when you get to 1st dan level (which is an instructor grade pretty much anywhere in the world except Korea) then you shouldn't need as frequent "attaboys".

I understand that it takes some weaning out of frequent gradings which is why I like the system of increasing waits between dan ranks rather than just 1-2nd Dan = 5 Years, 2-3rd Dan = 5 years or something.

Cannot speak for the rest of the US or the world, but first dan is definitely not considered an instructor rank in my area.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Cannot speak for the rest of the US or the world, but first dan is definitely not considered an instructor rank in my area.l

So what rank do you have to be to open a school in your state? What/who enforces it? NGB or government?

In the UK you can register a club with the BTCB at 1st Dan and you can become a BTC Registered Instructor at 1st Dan.

 

[sfs982000]

And so when you line up according to seniority, do decideds stand before recommendeds, as so forth? How do you tell who is a decided vs. recommended?

Really the only decided/recommended rank where you can really tell is at 1st Dan. 1st Dan recommended wear a Poom belt and once they get to 1st Dan decided it's a regular black belt. Our school has custom embroidered belts for the leadership folks with Dan bars embroidered on them so in that sense it makes it easy, but as far as whose decided or recommended most folks know and line up accordingly. Those folks that are not part of the leadership team get just a plain black belt, so again it's on the honor system as to where you line up, if you know the person next to you out ranks you, you just move down.

 

[karatemom]

In our organization formerly known as ITA (International Taekwondo Alliance) now known as Tiger Rock Martial Arts (just a "branding" change for the most part).

Each black belt level between 1st degree and 3rd degree has 4 levels (level 1 and 2 have the same form, level and 3 and 4 have a the same form different from level 1 and 2). Testing can occur anywhere between 2 months and 1 year depdending on what rank you currently are (the higher the rank, the longer between testings, not everyone tests each time they are eligible based on rank, and your instructor will let you know if you are ready to test (you also have to have a minimum number of classes and yes there is a fee for each testing):

1st degree level 1 is probationary black belt, black belt with white stripe, no name on it.
1st degree level 2 is decided black belt, solid black belt with name embroidered on it and 1 stripe with a L2 on it.
(Both of these ranks most of you know as Gwang-Gae form)
1st degree level 3 and 4 (Ge-Baek form) have black belt with name, 1 stripe and either L3 or L4 on it.

2nd degree is solid black belt with name, 2 stripes and either L1, L2, L3, or L4 on it.
2nd degree Level 1 and 2 have the form most of you know as Yoo-Sin.
2nd degree Level 3 and 4 have the form most of you know as Ul-Ji.

3rd degree is solid black with name, 3 stripes and either L1, L2, L3, or L4 on it.
3rd degree Level 1 and 2 have the form most of you know as Choong-Jang.
3rd degree Level 3 and 4 have the form most of you know as Juche.

It is my understanding these forms were modified somewhat from their orignal Korean forms but are still very similar.

At testing, we have to do our form, spar at least 3 rounds, demonstrate a specific technique on pad (if you are a level 4), do specific board breaks (re-breakable boards) and have agreement from all the judges you have demonstrated the skills required of your rank and are worthy of progressing to next rank. Also, starting at 2nd degree level 4 you have to interview 2 months prior to your testing to ask permission for testing from the Masters (there are requirements for this as well, certain # of trainings, # of events attended, etc).

Not sure if this explanation helped or not.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So what rank do you have to be to open a school in your state? What/who enforces it? NGB or government?

There are no regulations in the US governing who can open a school. If I had the financial wherewithal to open a school, I could do so. If I am leading a class and wearing a black belt, the majority of consumers will never know the difference. But those familiar with the arts do not consider first dan to be an instructor rank. By first dan, most students are assisting in some capacity, but that does not make them an instructor grade. First dan is considered to be the top of the bottom. Fourth dan and up are generally what is considered instructor grades.

In the UK you can register a club with the BTCB at 1st Dan and you can become a BTC Registered Instructor at 1st Dan.

What is a BTC?

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

By first dan, most students are assisting in some capacity, but that does not make them an instructor grade. First dan is considered to be the top of the bottom. Fourth dan and up are generally what is considered instructor grades.

This would depend on specific clubs and systems. For TKD, 4th dan is considered an instructor rank, but in our system, 1st dan is an instructor rank as well.