Five Codes of Human Conduct

[terryl965]

Be loyal to your country
Be obediant to your parents
Be trustworthy to your friends
Never retreat in battle
Never make an unjust kill

Now these have been expanded from the original five codes to eleven for modern day TKD.

Here is the modern day version

Loyalty to your country
Respect your parents
Faithfulness to your spouse
respect your brother and sisters
Loyalty to your friends
respect your elders
respect your teachers
never take life unju8stly
Imdomitable spirit
Loyalty to your school
Finish what you begin.

What is everyone take on this and is it good or bad for TKD to make these changes.

 

[tellner]

The old platitudes were nice.
The new platitudes are nice.
Standing in a line and chanting them is not going to make much difference to a person's life one way the other.

 

[MA-Caver]

The old platitudes were nice.
The new platitudes are nice.
Standing in a line and chanting them is not going to make much difference to a person's life one way the other.

Well yes that is true... but it'll make a difference if they APPLY those principals now wouldn't it?

 

[tellner]

Well yes that is true... but it'll make a difference if they APPLY those principals now wouldn't it?

Well, yes they would. That's why nobody steals, covets, murders, lies or commits adultery in the West :shrug:

 

[MA-Caver]

Well, yes they would. That's why nobody steals, covets, murders, lies or commits adultery in the West :shrug:

Damn right... next subject please.... (just kidding)...

Agreed.. but nobody is perfect and while it's possible to do so all it takes is dedication to one's self and they CAN live among those lines. They just got to WANT to. :wink1:

 

[terryl965]

Damn right... next subject please.... (just kidding)...

Agreed.. but nobody is perfect and while it's possible to do so all it takes is dedication to one's self and they CAN live among those lines. They just got to WANT to. :wink1:

This is so true, especially in today world so many people believe the short cuts are the best possible way to riches.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I think much of those values are no longer ingrained in our youth. No one is going to be perfect, but receiving that kind of instruction can make a difference. I think having a code of conduct is a good thing, even though there will be failures. It is a goal to strive for and can be motivating to get back on the right track when a failure occurs. I certainly wouldn't ditch any attempts to instill those values in someone just because so many others don't live by the same code. You gotta start somewhere. JMO.

 

[Imua Kuntao]

It's a shame we have to be reminded t how to inter-act, and that youths outside of MAs are never exposed to this or worse just dont care about anything or anyone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Confucianism

The gentleman

cultivate themselves morally;
show filial piety and loyalty where these are due;
cultivate humanity, or benevolence.

Buddhism

Eightfold Path

1. Right View
2. Right Intention
3. Right Speech
4. Right Action
5. Right Livelihood
6. Right Effort
7. Right Mindfulness
8. Right Concentration

 

[Tames D]

Well, yes they would. That's why nobody steals, covets, murders, lies or commits adultery in the West :shrug:

Obviously you haven't met me.

 

[Tames D]

I think much of those values are no longer ingrained in our youth. No one is going to be perfect, but receiving that kind of instruction can make a difference. I think having a code of conduct is a good thing, even though there will be failures. It is a goal to strive for and can be motivating to get back on the right track when a failure occurs. I certainly wouldn't ditch any attempts to instill those values in someone just because so many others don't live by the same code. You gotta start somewhere. JMO.

Well said!!

 

[Flying Crane]

Be loyal to your country
Be obediant to your parents
Be trustworthy to your friends
Never retreat in battle
Never make an unjust kill

I'll just play Devil's Advocate a little here, to maybe encourage some deeper thinking on this.

On the surface, these things sound great. But what about...

1. Whose country? In these politically charged times, if you knew someone from Iran or North Korea who was trying to defect to the US, would you encourage/help him to do so? What if he held military secrets of his nation and wanted to give them to the US? That person is not showing loyalty to HIS country. Is that OK, just because his disloyalty/treason might benefit OUR country?

2. your parents are schmucks, they get thru life by defrauding the Welfare System, and now they are trying to get you to help them commit Insurance Fraud...

3. You shouldn't have friends to whom you would not be trustworthy. However, what if your friend is basically a good person but has faults and moments of weakness when he makes bad decisions, and he is "counting on" you to help him commit some petty swindling?

4. Is fighting a lost cause worth dying for? What if you were forced into a battle you don't believe in? Is it truly "retreating", or is it merely recognizing that it's a lost cause and/or an immoral fight? It ought to be OK to admit that you are wrong, even in a war...

5. What if you are a soldier in a war with which you disagree? The war was started by your own nation, and you believe it was based on lies and manipulated intelligence reports, and its true purpose is to enrich the elites of your nation. Is not every life taken in this war an Unjust act?


I'll just leave it at that for now.

Having a general Code of Conduct sounds nice, but I think there are too many exceptions to the rule, and I prefer to encourage people to look at the facts and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. Think for yourself, and don't allow a rule of conduct to become iron-clad.

 

[Twin Fist]

*sigh*

cant anything jsut be "Good" anymore?

 

[MA-Caver]

I'll just play Devil's Advocate a little here, to maybe encourage some deeper thinking on this.

On the surface, these things sound great. But what about...

1. Whose country? In these politically charged times, if you knew someone from Iran or North Korea who was trying to defect to the US, would you encourage/help him to do so? What if he held military secrets of his nation and wanted to give them to the US? That person is not showing loyalty to HIS country. Is that OK, just because his disloyalty/treason might benefit OUR country?

2. your parents are schmucks, they get thru life by defrauding the Welfare System, and now they are trying to get you to help them commit Insurance Fraud...

3. You shouldn't have friends to whom you would not be trustworthy. However, what if your friend is basically a good person but has faults and moments of weakness when he makes bad decisions, and he is "counting on" you to help him commit some petty swindling?

4. Is fighting a lost cause worth dying for? What if you were forced into a battle you don't believe in? Is it truly "retreating", or is it merely recognizing that it's a lost cause and/or an immoral fight? It ought to be OK to admit that you are wrong, even in a war...

5. What if you are a soldier in a war with which you disagree? The war was started by your own nation, and you believe it was based on lies and manipulated intelligence reports, and its true purpose is to enrich the elites of your nation. Is not every life taken in this war an Unjust act?


I'll just leave it at that for now.

Having a general Code of Conduct sounds nice, but I think there are too many exceptions to the rule, and I prefer to encourage people to look at the facts and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. Think for yourself, and don't allow a rule of conduct to become iron-clad.

The ideals put down and the pardoxes you bring up would be difficult for anyone I think.
Probably the best answer I can think of would be the simplest ... listen/follow your heart in each circumstances.

*sigh*

cant anything jsut be "Good" anymore?

That's the short version of the original list :wink1:

 

[Kacey]

The old platitudes were nice.
The new platitudes are nice.
Standing in a line and chanting them is not going to make much difference to a person's life one way the other.

Perhaps not... but it's a starting point for discussions that could make a difference to a person's life one way or the other.

 

[YoungMan]

I've only taught the originals, but explained how they could be applied to modern life. And yes, it is important in martial arts to have a code of conduct. Too many people today have no principles in which to run their life. To me, the 5 Point Code is a great way to balance the power we develop from practice with a moral foundation.

 

[Jade Tigress]

I'll just play Devil's Advocate a little here, to maybe encourage some deeper thinking on this.

On the surface, these things sound great. But what about...

1. Whose country? In these politically charged times, if you knew someone from Iran or North Korea who was trying to defect to the US, would you encourage/help him to do so? What if he held military secrets of his nation and wanted to give them to the US? That person is not showing loyalty to HIS country. Is that OK, just because his disloyalty/treason might benefit OUR country?

2. your parents are schmucks, they get thru life by defrauding the Welfare System, and now they are trying to get you to help them commit Insurance Fraud...

3. You shouldn't have friends to whom you would not be trustworthy. However, what if your friend is basically a good person but has faults and moments of weakness when he makes bad decisions, and he is "counting on" you to help him commit some petty swindling?

4. Is fighting a lost cause worth dying for? What if you were forced into a battle you don't believe in? Is it truly "retreating", or is it merely recognizing that it's a lost cause and/or an immoral fight? It ought to be OK to admit that you are wrong, even in a war...

5. What if you are a soldier in a war with which you disagree? The war was started by your own nation, and you believe it was based on lies and manipulated intelligence reports, and its true purpose is to enrich the elites of your nation. Is not every life taken in this war an Unjust act?


I'll just leave it at that for now.

Having a general Code of Conduct sounds nice, but I think there are too many exceptions to the rule, and I prefer to encourage people to look at the facts and make a decision on a case-by-case basis. Think for yourself, and don't allow a rule of conduct to become iron-clad.

Those are excellent points FC, and I appreciate your playing devil's advocate. I do think however that a code of conduct is just that. It's a code by which to base your life decisions on, decisions to do what's *right*. This is not brainwashing where hard and fast rules are ingrained at the cost of common sense and empathy. Codes of Conduct should be there to help people make the right choice in either a given situation or an overall life view. Basically, following a code should bring about positive results in a persons life. There are, of course, always exceptions.

Better to be taught some sort of code for living positively than be taught nothing at all and live selfishly, doing whatever you feel like without thought for anyone else. In each of the examples given, think of how a person who was taught a code of conduct, and one who wasn't, could make each situation better or worse.

I don't have the time to go down the list right now, but quickly, in the war situation, war is always a terrible but sometimes necessary thing. You can have a soldier who was taught a code that may not agree with the war he is fighting in. So, he goes in and does his best to defend his country yet not kill when he doesn't have to kill. Someone who was not taught a code wouldn't care about the *rightness* of the war, but rather go in and try to kill as much as possible, or betray his country causing further death and destruction. Either way killing is gonna happen, but the person taught a code is going to be far more conscientious in the way he fights the war as opposed to the person who wasn't taught a code.

 

[rchurch]

I've only taught the originals, but explained how they could be applied to modern life. And yes, it is important in martial arts to have a code of conduct. Too many people today have no principles in which to run their life. To me, the 5 Point Code is a great way to balance the power we develop from practice with a moral foundation.

There's a story and I don't remember exactly how it goes, but it's something like this: Two guys were walking along the beach and came across several hundred starfish that had washed ashore. One guy started picking them up and throwing them back into the sea. The other guy asked, "Why are you doing that? There's so many it won't make a difference." As the guy threw the next starfish back into the sea, he simply said, "Made a diference to that one, didn't it?"

If you reach just one student, it makes a difference.

 

[bluekey88]

In my job, we have to deal with children and adults who sometimes go into crisis and get our of control (become a danger to self and others). We are taught techniques (mostly vebral/sitautional...some physical) to help maintain the safety of our clients and ourselves. I am a trainer of these CPI (Crisis Prevention and Intervention) technqiues.

The point is that one of the first things we teach is that "there are many guidelines, but few rules." That is to say, follow the guidelines whenever possible, but be aware that sometimes that just won't be possible...exceptional situations arise all the time.

A codwe of conduct is simply a set of guidleines. It's great to follow most of the time, but there will inevitably be those situations where dogmatic adherence to the code is not the best thing to do. The wise person will recognize this and adjust accoringly. In a lot of ways, that's what MA training is all about...reading situations, dealing wiht them (following certian guidlines) and being flexible and aware enough to adjust as necessary.

Peace,
Erik