Favorite/Hated thing/s about Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu

[Shizen Shigoku]

Oh, by the way, this whole discussion on what actually is ninjutsu is one of the favorite and hated things about ninjutsu - so I think we're still on topic.

My favorite thing is that ninjutsu training teaches so much that it can sometimes be confusing as to what ninjutsu actually is.

The hated thing is that ninjutsu training teaches so much that it can sometimes be confusing as to what ninjutsu actually is.



Another favorite thing is that I can come on these fora and have interesting discussions about ninjutsu and ninjutsu related matters with all of you. For that I am thankfull (I still have so much to be thankful for that I couldn't fit it all into Thangsgiving Day yesterday)!

So thank you all!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).

As long as you don't spell it Nimh...damned movie destroyed my childhood...:wah:

Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"

I honestly don't think so.

It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't.

Really? I'm constantly being told the opposite.

All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing.

Takagi Oriemon Shigenobu would be rotating in his grave of course...

Here's another analogy: I went to college to learn physics and engineering. I had to take classes in English Composition and Mathematics. Would one say while I was taking those classes that I was not learning engineering skills, or even that I was not an engineering student at all?

Given the amount of ninjutsu taught in the Bujinkan in comparison with taijutsu and bukiwaza, if that analogy were to be totally correct, you went to college to learn English.:asian:

 

[Moko]

What's this then?

It was 1943? My Dad was in an elite cavalry regiment on the silver medal team in WWII. They were withdrawl experts and usually took over dug-in positions and held them while the Div they replaced skedaddled to new positions and dug in.
He and his #2 were in what must have been an observation trench (as it was on the forward slope) with communications trenches cut to the rear and their horses. (The horse were just for Transportation.) He had his MG42 and orders to hold the Russians off as long as possible.
In the valley in front of him was a big old fieldstone farmhouse with a huge haystack beside it. Behind the haystack were lots of Russians who meant my father great harm. Dad had set the sights on the MG slighty off the haystack towards the house and each time a Russian ran to the house he ran into where the bullets were going. Dad didn't aim at the Russian, he aimed in front of them. He was a very adept Machine-gunner.
Soon there was a pile of Russians lying between the haystack and the house and my Dad still wasn't making any buddies. Suddenly, for no apparent reason Dad ducked down into the trench and pulled his MG after him. As he ducked he turned and happened to see the "fire" from the tracer that entered his #2's leg.

What made Dad duck? Ninjutsu? That's a Japanese thing isn't it? Dad was very, very German. Sakki? Possible. He had annoyed enough of the Russians. (He was in awe of the Russian machine gunner who shot at him as the guy was right on for range and drift. He figures they were over a klick away, on the ridge opposite the valley with house and haystack.)

I have never figured this one out. Any help would be cool.

Robert

 

[Don Roley]

Robert,
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I really do not know how what you wrote has to do with this thread. I know we kind of went form hated and favorite thing, to what we would call ninjutsu training. But I still have trouble making the conection with what you wrote. Can you graph it out for me?

But, it was a cool story. I know a little about the Eastern front battles and have been around when a MG42 cut loose. Sounds like a freaking buzz saw it fires so fast. I did not know much about the use of calvary as covering units for retrograde actions.

 

[Moko]

Thread drift.

Mea culpa.

I've heard an MG 42 also. Tearing canvas is my description of it.

That story has always weirded me out. I didn't understand it and after training in the Bujikan understand less but feel that maybe I should. Be nice to talk to Dad about it but the long distance would kill me. Ooo, bad pun.

Maybe just that the Japanese used ninjutsu or ninpo to desscribe a higher level of warfare? I don't know. That's why I ask questions and read.

One day I will write Dad's stories down. I'll send you a copy. Or tell you some of them over a brewsky. They are amazing stuff.

Robert

PS if anyone else wants to comment on that story go for it in a pm. I thought it kinda appropriate. outta here. Keep up the good work.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

"Exactly. That's EXACTLY what happened. God came down from heaven and stopped these m-f-ing bullets." :supcool:

 

[Shogun]

is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?

I may not be very far in training, but Ninjutsu seems like one of the most physically demanding parts of Booj training. since the rest has emphasis on simple motions and all.....

Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.

Stupid snipers. they should read the policy.


I gots a question.
if the TSD people that are studying the classical material (I have the tapes) are learning TSD Togakure ryu etc...then wouldnt they be studying "ninjutsu"? I have the Togakure ryu Kihon and a few Shoden dvds myself

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you're learning Togakure ryu ninpo taijutsu, no, you're not necessarily learning ninjutsu.

 

[Shogun]

Well, its not specifically Taijutsu. In the Toshindo Togakure curriculum, SKH teaches some Ninjutsu within the rest of the material, such as Ko ashi. So Togakure ryu ninpo Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Bojutsu, Shurikenjutsu, Kenjutsu, jujutsu would be more correct way of putting it. I think that is where the confusion is for some, in that Ninjutsu is just a skill set contained within a primary art.

kyle

 

[still learning]

Hello, Is there really an authentic style left anywhere? What is traditional today? What I do not like is the claims some schools make and not just here? about being the true one.

 

[Don Roley]

Hello, Is there really an authentic style left anywhere? What is traditional today? What I do not like is the claims some schools make and not just here? about being the true one.

:-offtopic

Still Learning,
You seem to fall into the logical fallicy of believing that since we really cannot know everything, we cannot say anything with any sort of certainty. So you seem to be trying to make the case that we really cannot say that people like Ashida Kim are frauds.

Well, I can tell you with complete certainty that there is no proof in Japan that I have been able to find for Ashida Kim or the other sources on the internet that claim to be ninjutsu outside of the three covered in the traditional ninjutsu section of this board.

I can also tell you that the amount of proof I could pull out to prove that I have been studying martial arts would by quite a lot. And yet people like Ashida Kim who claim to have trained since age 5 in some cases do not seem to be able to do the same.

Oh, and I can speak and read Japanese. I have shown some of the stuff I have seen to native speakers of the language. I know that some of it makes then laugh when they hear hat is supposbaly passed on by a native Japanese speaker.

And even though I was not there for most of the events of history, I can say that I know that a lot of what I read from people like Ashida Kim runs counter to everythign everybody else in Japan is saying.

If you really do not know much, please do not assume that everybody else is as ignorant as you. Some of us have been studying this art, it's history and the language for decades. After all that, we still believe we are open to new things. If you think that you know more than us without going through all that we have, then I consider that a pretty conceited attitude on your part.

 

[heretic888]

Hrmmm.... methinks somebody has perhaps read Postmodernism for Dimwits a few too many times. Nihilism is, like, so 90's man.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

At least it's better than neo-deconstructivism...then we'd REALLY have some flame wars abound.

Anyway there's a very good question to ask to those who claim that one cannot know anything for sure.

"And how do you know that?"
:asian:

 

[heretic888]

I like Don's analogy too. Brings up my question about whether it is alright to use "ninjutsu" and "ninja training" synonymously.

One may be engaged in ninja training, but not actually be learning or practicing any ninjutsu (according to Nim's definition - btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).

However, it is assumed that if they continue on - like the soldier in sniper school that gets past basic training - then they will learn some ninjutsu along the way. Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"

I would disagree with this. If you look in historical treatises about 'ninjutsu', such as the Bansenshukai, there is not much mention of combatic taijutsu, kenjutsu, or the like. The skill set seems much more specialized --- focusing on things like disguise, geography, meteorology, how to break into Japanese doors, ways of employing spies, some pharmacology, and so on.

If you want a label for "ninja training", there is stuff like the ninja no hachimon, ninja juhakkei, or even just 'ninpo'.

The arts that the Buj' teaches are now referred to as Budo Taijutsu - a very broad term that accurately describes the fact that we learn a broad range of skills. It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't.

"Ninjutsu is really a genuine martial art. That's the one reason I changed the name from ninpo taijutsu to budo taijutsu. They are one and the same."

- Masaaki Hatsumi

All of the ryu of the Bujinkan are related to ninpo in some way, even just in the sense that they have been taught together through Takamatsu. There are three ryu that specialize in ninjutsu - Togakure, Kumogakure, Gyokkushin; Gyokko and Koto ryu are related, and both serve as auxilery fighting arts to Togakure Ryu, Gyokkushin Ryu is related to Gyokko Ryu, Gyokko Ryu is called a school of ninpo as well. The so-called "samurai" arts of Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin, and Shindenfudo ryu have been passed down together.

If I recall correctly, Takamatsu inherited the Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu from Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu (along with Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Gikan ryu). The Takagi Yoshin ryu and Kukishin ryu were inherited from his other teachers.

I think Kukishin has some connection to ninja ryu (if I'm to believe all the rumors I hear) - same with Shindenfudo Ryu. I don't know where Gikan fits in exactly - I'll have to check my sparse notes again on that.

I seem to recall reading that Gikan ryu, like Gyokushin ryu, is based on Gyokko ryu. But, I could be mistaken. Also, Gikan ryu was part of the so-called 'Momochi-den', was it not??

If I recall correctly, the first official soke of both Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu and Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu --- Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru --- was purportedly a student of Garyu Doshi ("founder" of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu, and second grandmaster of Iga ryu Ninjutsu). Of course, this doesn't make the individual in question a "ninja" as it would be several centuries before such operatives were being actively used in Iga and Koga (and I don't think Shinden Fudo ryu or Kukishin ryu are Iga traditions --- then again, Izumo is listed by Hatsumi as one of the "forty-five families of Iga ryu").

Then again, I could be mistaken. :asian:

All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing. It all leads to a better understanding and ability to use ninjutsu.

Or, as someone on e-budo once put it, ninpo "permeates" all the ryuha now --- regardless of their respective histories.

Just my thoughts, of course. :asian:

 

[heretic888]

At least it's better than neo-deconstructivism...then we'd REALLY have some flame wars abound.

Anyway there's a very good question to ask to those who claim that one cannot know anything for sure.

"And how do you know that?"
:asian:

:asian:

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Heretic: "I would disagree with this. If you look in historical treatises about 'ninjutsu', such as the Bansenshukai, there is not much mention of combatic taijutsu, kenjutsu, or the like."

I'm not trying to say there was. I'm just suggesting that "ninjutsu" isn't all that bad to use as a modern, slang term to refer to the overall process of ninja training.

 

[heretic888]

Heretic: "I would disagree with this. If you look in historical treatises about 'ninjutsu', such as the Bansenshukai, there is not much mention of combatic taijutsu, kenjutsu, or the like."

I'm not trying to say there was. I'm just suggesting that "ninjutsu" isn't all that bad to use as a modern, slang term to refer to the overall process of ninja training.

Ummm.... how about 'Ninpo'??

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Heretic: "Ummm.... how about 'Ninpo'??"

Meh, fine with me.

Here's something funny:

The dojo I train at is a mma dojo (jkd, muay thai, tai chi, . . . bunch of other stuff), and they have all the different arts listed on the front windows of the building. Our bujinkan group moved in recently, so they put "ninjitsu" on the front. We didn't make a big deal out of it, and it doesn't really bother anybody, but I think it would have been a good idea of the dojo owners to actually ask us what art we did (and how to spell it correctly) before adding more paint to the windows.

 

[heretic888]

:ultracool

 

[Elizium]

Heretic: "Ummm.... how about 'Ninpo'??"

Meh, fine with me.

Here's something funny:

The dojo I train at is a mma dojo (jkd, muay thai, tai chi, . . . bunch of other stuff), and they have all the different arts listed on the front windows of the building. Our bujinkan group moved in recently, so they put "ninjitsu" on the front. We didn't make a big deal out of it, and it doesn't really bother anybody, but I think it would have been a good idea of the dojo owners to actually ask us what art we did (and how to spell it correctly) before adding more paint to the windows.

Maybe the sign painter ran out of paint :whip: