Favorite/Hated thing/s about Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu

[heretic888]

Ninjutsu was developed as a small mans art for the av farmer type against the typically massive samurai.

I think this was what Nimravus was referring to. That, and the kuji-kiri. :supcool:

 

[Blooming Lotus]

Cheers Peaceful Tiger but this is a forum and occassionally you'll get that stuff.

Nimravus : Granted I have only read about ninjutsu history from only several different sources and disscussed it for only a yr ish with other historians and long time practioners, but if you have another version yourself, I'd be happy to talk to you about it on another thread.

But getting back to the topic at hand , the kuji kiri is a great meditational tool , however you adapt it and I stand by my comment. I love many aspects of it.

And yourself Nimravus?? Likes and dislikes??

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Another thing I dislike is when people's main sources of reference are questionable 80's books...

 

[Blooming Lotus]

at least they try to provide something Mr. Nirvamus, as opposed to just politely berate and debase other ppl .

BTW chinese chin na cop-babe ( who confirmed what other practioners of 8 + yrs have also reiterated ) has been studying and in that force where they require the eastern history studies ( particularly pertaining to wars and combat systems they might encounter) to be mastered and updated regularly . In light of the fact that all I've heard from yourself is series of "No it's nots!!!" ...for now , I think I'm just going to go with the information I have .


btw , I tried to comment on your profile , but A. apparently I don't have enough points ( ) and B. I couldn't find the prompt ..........

meiguanxi, here is fine....... Found that dislike I told you I'd get back to on, when someone rides in on their high horse calling foul and claiming their own expertise but won't share their own information. How do you support that kind of opposition nor change your stance ???? :idunno:

Blooming Lotus

 

[Don Roley]

Found that dislike I told you I'd get back to on, when someone rides in on their high horse calling foul and claiming their own expertise but won't share their own information. How do you support that kind of opposition nor change your stance ???? :idunno:

Blooming Lotus

I believe that the first step in gaining knowledge is understanding what you do not know. Once you know that you don't know something, then you can go out and find the real answer.

So, I do not think there has to be any new answers to replace the ones that are shot down. Knowing that there is a question mark and we may not really know what went on 500 years ago is much better IMO than trying to come up with a theory that may be equally untrue.

Also, I am not fond of your way of stating things as fact. I have trouble with you using a source for your statments someone none of us can access. Not only is it a "appeal to authority" type of logical fallacy, but we give people like Sojobow hell over his reference to sources that no one else seems able to find. In addition, I have seen people try to use me as a source even though their memory of what I said was extremely off. It is much better if you stick to sources that other people can go and see for themselves.

If you stated your theory as your own, then that in itself is enough for us to talk about. But when you build up this Chinese Chi Na player as an expert, it seems like you are trying to take the high ground in intellectual one- upmanship. You see the problems I have with that?

I would like to welcome you to the ninjutsu section of martialtalk and hope that we can discuss things in a friendly manner. You strike me as quite enthusiastic and should be a vauable member here if we manage to avoid getting off on the wrong foot with each other.

 

[finalheartz]

If you ask questions about training and what you hate about it... then why are you training in the first place in something you do not like?


As for water training ETC, go to the local pool and swim. Survival.... Join the Marines. I await the next idiotic question in the shadows.:whip:

Maybe you dun get wad he means, There are many hidden techniques in Ninjutsu that people dun get to learn, instructors themselves maybe? Ninjutsu is not just martial arts, its the purity of mind and body/spiritual defense. Water training might mean Meditation in water to allow Ninjas to be able to breath in water for longer time( traditionally explained like this if im not wrong ).. our modern time now is different from the olden days.. where spiritual and religious beliefs is "hot".. To what i think.. i think modern ninjutsu of our time now.. is just basically self-defense.. meditation yes.. but not of spiritual powers. I may be talking crap as you do not believe.. but I believe what I believe in.. it's my own personal view.. as for Elizium.. Please do not critisize other's personal view as you do not have the right to do so.. anyway.. what does their own personal views got to do with you?:asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Trust me, ninjutsu has very little to do with self defense.

 

[heretic888]

Please do not critisize other's personal view as you do not have the right to do so..

According to who??

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Blooming Lotus: "...all I've heard from yourself is series of 'No it's nots!!!' "

While I can't say that I agree with anything else said by Blooming Lotus, I do agree with the above.

I see many posts by Nimravus saying what ninjutsu is not. It's like a sculpter chipping away at a hunk of stone, discarding all the pieces that do not belong. But what does the statue actually look like? After we've thrown away everything that ninjutsu isn't, what is left? What is ninjutsu, Nimravus?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=312209#post312209 "Trust me, ninjutsu has very little to do with self defense."

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311659#post311659 "You can be the most skilled practitioner of bodily techniques in the world, that does not automatically qualify you to teach ninjutsu any more than it qualifies you to teach physics."

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311114#post311114 "That's assuming he did learn NINJUTSU while in any of the -kans, as opposed to taijutsu and bukiwaza."

So, ninjutsu does not include taijutsu nor bukiwaza?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=301637#post301637 "As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information."

"I for one practiced the santo tonko no gata for the first time in my life at a weekend seminar approximately four weeks ago, if anyone's interested."

But the santo tonko kata are not part of ninjutsu, right?

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=301739#post301739 "Ninjutsu is nothing you can practice per se, it has more to do with passing on information."

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311505#post311505 "Unlike karate, ninjutsu isn't about physical techniques."

"I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you were to teach an American version of the concept known in the Japanese language (which is spoken in Japan, funny enough) as ninjutsu, you'd be teaching methods of strategy, surveillance, informations gathering and espionage as done in Langley, for example. NOT a set of physical techniques."

Ok, so here we have Nimravus's definition of ninjutsu: "strategy, surveillance, informations gathering and espionage" - none of which involve anything physical, nor have much to do with self-defense.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=306903#post306903 "The following words are among those NOT synonymous with the concept ninjutsu:" [see list]

I'll help you clarify, since you seem so adverse to do so yourself.

"Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan/To Shin Do/martial science" - are not ninjutsu, but may or may not include ninjutsu in their curriculum.

"Taijutsu/unarmed techniques" - are not ninjutsu, but may be considered part of ninjutsu in the sense that taijutsu is learned as a way to understand ninjutsu.

"Ninpo" - is not the same as ninjutsu, but the terms are related. How about a detailed definition of both, Nimravus?

"Bujutsu" - is not ninjutsu, but ninjutsu is bujutsu.

"Budo" - is not ninjutsu, but ninjutsu can be practiced as a part of budo.

"Shurikenjutsu" - is not ninjutsu, is not necessarily a part of ninjutsu, but is an auxillary practice that may augment you ninjutsu.

"Taihenjutsu" - is an aspect of taijutsu.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=303495#post303495 "I will, as of right now, but I don't practice ninjutsu."

You train in Bujinkan Budo and haven't learned any ninjutsu yet? I'm sure you'll get to it eventually.

I could go on and on. The point is, Nimravus, I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with what you have written, I only think it would do more to say what ninjutsu is than to say what it is not.

Remember that a lot of people training in the Bujinkan started when everything taught was called ninjutsu, so refering to Budo Taijutsu or Ninpo Taijutsu as Ninjutsu is a hard habit to break.

I still define ninjutsu according to things like the ninja hachimon, the juhappan, the juhakkei, etc.

Yes, taijutsu and ninjutsu are separate things, but one learns ninjutsu in conjunction with taijutsu, so wouldn't taijutsu be considered part of ninjutsu training?

Maybe a distinction needs to be made between ninja training (which includes all of the above), and ninjutsu itself (which is just one part of ninja training). ??

Or maybe it's not so bad to refer to ninja training as ninjutsu. ??

I dunno, Nim, you're the expert apparently - how about you enlighten the inquiring minds?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Given all the effort you put in checking up on my writings I find it kind of odd that you somehow missed what I wrote in the "traditional/neo" thread, page 3, post 40.


No, ninjutsu in and of itself is not about taijutsu or bukiwaza.

As for the santo tonko no gata, my point was that they were part of my first exposure to Togakure ryu, the school in which the most of actual ninjutsu has been revealed by Hatsumi sensei, to the best of my knowledge. If it took me that long to be taught some of the taijutsu of Togakure ryu (which does require an understanding of the basics in Koto and Gyokko ryu to be taught, according to what I've been told; note that Koto ryu is not Togakure ryu, but has to be understood for training in Togakure ryu's taijutsu to do the most good), how long do you think it takes to learn things like dressing up as a 16th century Japanese town drunk/beggar/merchant to infiltrate a castle, learn at which points in said castle where the usage of fire does the most damage, how to make poisons and antidote the way it was done 500 years ago etc.?

There are a few things I do know about "actual" ninjutsu, one of them being that it isn't about physical techniques. Another, how to see better in the dark, both of which I've written here on this forum.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Boy, do I feel silly...it just occured to me that the aforementioned ankokutoshijutsu has something to do with kamae, which indeed has to do with taijutsu. But still, that's a good example of the fact that there aren't any ninjutsu without taijutsu.

 

[Don Roley]

But still, that's a good example of the fact that there aren't any ninjutsu without taijutsu.

Ok, I think that we are dealing with some crosed wires in communication.

Looking at the above, I think that you are of the opinion is not only about physical techniques and fighting. But the message I have gotten from a lot of what you write is that ninjutsu has nothing to do with fighting or physical techniques.

If you are saying that you need to have taijutsu down before you get into ninjutsu, then I agree. A lot of questionable people talk about inton no jutsu and such without talking about taijutsu and that should IMO set off some alarm bells.

But if you are saying that you can learn ninjutsu without the tonsogata, then I am still confused.

I honestly do not know and I am not sure if it is becasue you may not be a native speaker of English, I am just confused or if the subject is a very subtle one and difficult to talk about. But maybe we can settle this here and see if it is merely a matter of poor communication.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

But if you are saying that you can learn ninjutsu without the tonsogata, then I am still confused.

Didn't we just agree upon the fact that one's taijutsu has to be perfected before you can dabble into ninjutsu...?

 

[heretic888]

Interesting discussion, guys. Keep it up. :asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Didn't we just agree upon the fact that one's taijutsu has to be perfected before you can dabble into ninjutsu...?

But take a look at the following statement by you and maybe you will see why I am confused at times over what you are trying to say.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=301637#post301637 "As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information."

So if we have to perfect our taijutsu before we dabble in ninjutsu (agreed :cheers: ) how is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?

Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.

Did that make sense? I have not had my first jolt of caffine for the day.

 

[heretic888]

Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.

Well, Don, if I may be so bold as to interject here...

... I would maintain that the distinction you mentioned is not really "splitting hairs". Not at all.

Look at it this way: someone could hypothetically take up the same training in Koto ryu as Mr. Togakure Shinobi Down the Street did, and yet never be exposed to any ninjutsu-specific training. Not even once. At the same time, someone in the military could hypothetically take up the same basic training as Mr. Sniper Up the Alley did, and yet never be exposed to any sniping-specific training. Not even once.

In which case, would it really be accurate to refer to the Koto ryu stylist as a "ninja" or as "studying ninjutsu"?? Would it really be accurate to refer to the basic training soldier as a "sniper" or "studying sniping"??

Just my thoughts, at any rate. :asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Well heretic, I think we are on the same page. I guess I would say that you go to Basic training if you want to learn to be a sniper. But just because you sweat it out in basic training does not make you a sniper. You have to continue on.

In the same way, I would say that you go to a Bujinkan dojo to learn ninjutsu. But just because you have attended some classes there and seen some stuff from Koto ryu, etc, does not mean that you have learned anything really ninjutsu specific unless you stick it out and get the full picture.

I still have not gotten any coffee yet, so I hope that makes sense.

 

[heretic888]

I still have not gotten any coffee yet, so I hope that makes sense.

Perfect sense. :ultracool

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way.

Laterz. :asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

how is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?

Ah, now I think I know where the confusion is. By physical techniques, I meant combat oriented taijutsu. I have practiced the santo tonko no gata and the shinobi gaeshi gata (situations where one is discovered while hiding and starts flinging shuriken and metsubushi at sword wielding adversaries, the classic Togakure ryu style scenario), but I for one do not consider physical methods such as these to be "ninjutsu". I'd rather call it "ninpo taijutsu". But if there's something fundamentally wrong with this point of view, I would be more than happy to stand corrected.:asian:

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

Nimravus: "Ah, now I think I know where the confusion is. By physical techniques, I meant combat oriented taijutsu."

Gotcha - very clear now.

I like Don's analogy too. Brings up my question about whether it is alright to use "ninjutsu" and "ninja training" synonymously.

One may be engaged in ninja training, but not actually be learning or practicing any ninjutsu (according to Nim's definition - btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).

However, it is assumed that if they continue on - like the soldier in sniper school that gets past basic training - then they will learn some ninjutsu along the way. Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"

The arts that the Buj' teaches are now referred to as Budo Taijutsu - a very broad term that accurately describes the fact that we learn a broad range of skills. It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't. In the past, though, ninpo was emphasized as the core feeling of the art. Before that, it was all referred to as Ninjutsu as that is what one would ultimately learn; whether they ever get around to any inton, or choho, or bunryaku, etc. they are still learning the building blocks that make up part of ninjutsu training.

That is why I think it is ok (not 100% accurate though) to refer to Bujinkan training as ninjutsu (i.e. ninjutsu = ninja training).

All of the ryu of the Bujinkan are related to ninpo in some way, even just in the sense that they have been taught together through Takamatsu. There are three ryu that specialize in ninjutsu - Togakure, Kumogakure, Gyokkushin; Gyokko and Koto ryu are related, and both serve as auxilery fighting arts to Togakure Ryu, Gyokkushin Ryu is related to Gyokko Ryu, Gyokko Ryu is called a school of ninpo as well. The so-called "samurai" arts of Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin, and Shindenfudo ryu have been passed down together. I think Kukishin has some connection to ninja ryu (if I'm to believe all the rumors I hear) - same with Shindenfudo Ryu. I don't know where Gikan fits in exactly - I'll have to check my sparse notes again on that.

All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing. It all leads to a better understanding and ability to use ninjutsu.

Here's another analogy: I went to college to learn physics and engineering. I had to take classes in English Composition and Mathematics. Would one say while I was taking those classes that I was not learning engineering skills, or even that I was not an engineering student at all?