Eye gouging thread

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Gorilla said, in another thread

Start a eye gouging thread for heavens sake....:rtfm:

So, as a mindless servant of others, I'm starting this thread.

How can you teach someone to eye gouge when you clearly can't practice that technique?

Is it even effective?

If so, what situations is it effective in?

Have fun!

 

[Big Don]

Gouge... well... kinda... During sparring, nothing, aside from hitting harder than you are willing to be hit, is fair game.
If you push on the eye lightly with your thumb or finger(s) it hurts, a lot. It takes the fight right out of people. You can practice anything, except, cannibalism.

 

[DennisBreene]

As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage. I don't think I ever saw a patient who was struck in the classic Three Stooges style. Most fighting injuries were classic blunt force trauma from a fist. The results could range from a black eye to fractures of the bones of the eye socket to rupture and severe disruption of the eyeball itself. Some of the most serious injuries I've seen were the result of accidental contact to the eye during basketball games while scrambling under the net. These injuries were more likely to be from fingers stricking the eye and from a whip like motion of the hand while blocking or reaching for the ball. I suspect that the most practical way of attacking the eye in combat would be with a rapid multi finger whip like strike. Multi fingered to increase the odds that at least one eye is struck and whip like to impart maximum force to the strike. I have much less faith that a traditional "poke" would be as likely to hit on target with force.

 

[David43515]

I knew a Silat instructor who taught whipping strikes to the ees and simply built a foam head with deep eye sockets. He'd fill the hole with cotton balls so students could drive them to the back of the head or try tearing them out. Another kung fu teacher I trained with years ago had a few of the styrofoam heads that used to come with womens' wigs. He hollowed out the eye sockets and would put grapes in there. If you really want to train something, you'll com up with a way.Even saftey goggles might allow for very light contact sparring.

 

[DennisBreene]

I knew a Silat instructor who taught whipping strikes to the ees and simply built a foam head with deep eye sockets. He'd fill the hole with cotton balls so students could drive them to the back of the head or try tearing them out. Another kung fu teacher I trained with years ago had a few of the styrofoam heads that used to come with womens' wigs. He hollowed out the eye sockets and would put grapes in there. If you really want to train something, you'll com up with a way.Even saftey goggles might allow for very light contact sparring.

For the sake of those of us who have to put those eyes back together; PLEASE wear eye protection if you are going to attempt such manouvers.

 

[Cyriacus]

Hm.
I have mixed feelings about eye gouging, and i feel a list is best.

1: You have to beat the blink reflex to do the most possible damage.
2: Youre incapacitating both of your arms at close range, meaning they are in range to eye gouge you.
3: If you eye gouge someone, they now have reason to be super seriously angry with you.
4: From a top mount position, i can see it having merit.
5: On your back on the ground its a great place to be if you want to get arm-barred.

That being said, i do think they have their place, but i prefer raking the eyes as a setup rather than gouging them, and you can practice it without contact.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Depends on what you mean by "effective". In the original thread, the OP was talking specifically about "gouging out the eye" and, frankly, that's pretty damned difficult to do, unless you're in a Kill Bill episode.

On the other hand, such a degree of damage is far from necessary for strikes to the eyes to be effective. Very little contact is required to cause significant amounts of pain, and the eyes are one of those areas that people tend to reflexively guard (often to the point of neglecting their defense of other areas). A flick of the fingers at the eyes will, with very little impact, take a lot of the fight right out of the vast majority of people.

Frankly, I've seen a lot more people with significant orbital fractures than globe injuries.

 

[seasoned]

As an ophthalmologist who's seen a fair number of eye injuries in my career; I can say that when you strike an eye with your fingers, you will at least cause enough pain to momentarily gain an advantage. I don't think I ever saw a patient who was struck in the classic Three Stooges style. Most fighting injuries were classic blunt force trauma from a fist. The results could range from a black eye to fractures of the bones of the eye socket to rupture and severe disruption of the eyeball itself. Some of the most serious injuries I've seen were the result of accidental contact to the eye during basketball games while scrambling under the net. These injuries were more likely to be from fingers stricking the eye and from a whip like motion of the hand while blocking or reaching for the ball.

I suspect that the most practical way of attacking the eye in combat would be with a rapid multi finger whip like strike. Multi fingered to increase the odds that at least one eye is struck and whip like to impart maximum force to the strike. I have much less faith that a traditional "poke" would be as likely to hit on target with force.

This is the strike first taught to me years ago. Off the front hand much like a jab, but as you describe above, a flicking action.
Also the eyes are a target I have constantly taught over the years in women's self defense classes.

(Palm strikes to their ears, then grab one ear and with the other hand thumb in the eye, then RUN).

 

[Instructor]

We have two ways to go about it. A quick jab like spear hand to the eye. And the one we call an eye gouge which is a open handed slap to both ears using the ears for leverage with the fingertips and driving the thumbs into the eye sockets. In practice we usually target the infraorbital nerve to demonstrate. It hurts and as fringe benefit nobody goes blind.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Not exactly 'eye gouging' but...

To my way of thinking, the eyes are a valid target, but not a primary target in most cases. As primates who are historically absolutely dependent upon vision for survival, it is deeply ingrained in our basic instincts to protect our eyes. Most rapid hand movement towards the eyes, or even light contact to the eyes, causes an instant and almost always involuntary reaction. The head jerks back, the hands come up, the eyes close, etc.

This creates opportunities to strike exposed areas that can end a fight. If you happen, in the course of self-defense, to actually disrupt the attacker's vision, all the better.

To me, self-defense requires rapid removal of the ability of the attacker to continue to attack. This can be accomplished in many ways. Creating distance, damaging attacking limbs, removing the ability of the attacker to pursue, and so on. If they cannot see, they cannot fight. Moreover, they won't WANT to fight, they will want to retreat and protect their eyes. Even someone who is very intoxicated or drugged is still hard-wired from primal times to protect their eyes.

So for me, an eye strike, even an incomplete strike, is a very good idea if the opportunity presents itself in a self-defense scenario. But I would not depend upon it to incapacitate or end the fight by itself. If it does, great. If it does not, an instant followup technique using the moment of distraction is the way to go.

Actual gouging of the eyes? I see that in close quarters, perhaps. If both parties are on the ground, maybe, or circumstances such as those. As valid as a gonad grab-and-twist. Although honestly, if you've ever gotten your thumb into your own eye accidentally, you know it's a dull pain, not the instant, sharp, pain of grabbing a handful of skin under the bicep and just squeezing the crap out of it, or the inside of the thigh near the groin with the same grab (not to mention the testicles, always a popular target). That kind of pain gets attention in all but the very drunk or drugged. I suspect I'd still go for an eye poke rather than an eye gouge, though. A fast stiff-fingered jab into the eyes, and prepare for an instant secondary attack based on the reaction to the eye poke.

Just my thoughts as a student.

 

[oftheherd1]

We have two ways to go about it. A quick jab like spear hand to the eye. And the one we call an eye gouge which is a open handed slap to both ears using the ears for leverage with the fingertips and driving the thumbs into the eye sockets. In practice we usually target the infraorbital nerve to demonstrate. It hurts and as fringe benefit nobody goes blind.

Another one taught in the Hapkido I learned was for front bear hug defense with the arms free. You sudo strike the ribs as you step a little to the right rear, then move your right hand to the middle of the opponent's back to hold him, then strike/push up forcefully on his chin with the open palm of your left hand. Your fingers will fall roughly with two on each side of the opponent's nose, with the tips at the eyes, or just a little above. You push inward forcefully as you rake downward and attempt to fill your fingertips with as much eye/eyelid matter as possible. Fight over, and DennisBreene doesn't like you.

When in close, you may find other opportunities to make the same move against the eyes.

 

[elder999]

.

How can you teach someone to eye gouge when you clearly can't practice that technique?

BOB.

.



Live drills while wearing eye goggles.

Oranges.

.Is it even effective?

Slap on the side of the head, and in goes my thumb-of course, my hands are that big.

In any case, it doesn't matter if the eye is open or closed; the lid's not gonna stop a thumb that's stabbed through a few thousand oranges (pretty much every one I've ever eaten for the last 30 years or so....:lfao: )

EDIT: "Sparred" with a gung fu gu on LI back in the eighties-it was more like a cat playing with a mouse, and I was the mouse. :lfao: He was super fast, and would just reach over and flick my eyelashes with the tips of his fingers.

Glad he wasn't out to gouge my eyes.....:lfao:

 

[punisher73]

I wish I could remember the right, but in a UFC match one of the guys reaches out to kind of stiff arm the guy's face as he is checking a kick. He put his fingers right in the guys eye without meaning to. The other guy immediately dropped on the ground holding his eye. Yes, I would say that they are effective.

There are certain types of "shock pain" that are very hard to experience enough to override the message to the brain. You get kicked in the testicles enough and it still hurts REALLY bad, but you know you aren't going to die and can go through the pain. Getting hit in the solar plexus, or the nerve on the side of the leg same thing. You know and understand what is happening and while it still effects you, you can still function. Think about the first time you got hit really hard in the solar plexus and DIDN'T know what was going to happen, you get a panic response that sets in and really hampers you.

As far as, how to train. There are different ways from hanging ping pong balls to sheets of paper, to mannequin heads. Every time you punch someone in the nose with a jab, you are training yourself to fingerjab and learn the timing and accuracy required. The only limiting factor is your imagination (and safety).

In American Kenpo they created a set just on the different ways to do finger whips/rakes/gouges/spears to vulnerable targets.

 

[MJS]

How can it be trained? Eye protection and live drills, as Elder said. I've seen clips of Vunak doing this. Yeah, I know he may not be everyones favorite JKD person, but he's training it, nonetheless. I think that its a very effective technique. If a simple eyelash or dirt/dust getting in your eye, can cause pain and discomfort, getting a finger in the eye, be it a poke, gouge, finger whip...they all can be very effective. Even if the eyes are closed, it's not like you can condition your eyes or eyelids. Furthermore, IMO, if you can reach with a punch, then simply extending the fingers shouldn't be difficult. Again, its something that needs to be practiced.

I feel that its a tool best used in close, ie: within arms reach or grappling.

Of course, like anything we do in the arts, I also feel that we need to think about what the situation is, before we just fly off the handle and do something. Your drunk friend who's being an *** probably doesnt deserve a poke to the eye, but the guy who's trying to mug you, who's also holding a knife...yeah, I could justify the eye shot more in that case....but thats just me.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Over the years, I've received an accidental hard poke to the eyes in sparring three times that I can think of.

One time it made my eye water up a bit and I stepped out for a couple of minutes just to make sure no serious damage was done. If it had been a real fight it would have made an effective distraction. (Weird long term effect - for the next six months whenever I was in the dark I would see sporadic flashing circles of light.)

One time it hit me just right and I dropped to my knees holding my face in utter agony. It was fine a minute or two later, but it definitely would have won a fight.

One time it made my eyes water up to where I could barely see for a few minutes. However - I had already gotten a grip on my sparring partner. Working without my vision I was still able to take him down, get the mount, and finish him with an armbar.

Lesson learned: a flicking poke to the eyes can be very effective, but is not a guarantee. Another consideration: what about the risks of breaking or jamming your own fingers when you extend a fast poke and connect with something other than your opponents eyes, such as a forehead or an elbow block? I don't know that I would rely on the technique, but I certainly want to make sure that my own defensive structure protects me from accidental or deliberate eye pokes.


With regard to eye gouges, as opposed to flicky eye pokes, I like the approach I learned from a seminar with Roy Harris. The idea is that if you can control the back of your partners head with one hand and simulate a sideways gouging action to the forehead above the eyes with the other hand, then you could have managed an effective eye gouge if you had wanted to for real. Working with training partners that I trust, I've worked this into stand-up clinch drills and ground grappling. The trick is to be able to maintain your grappling flow without being distracted by the possiblility of using an eye gouge or the possibility of having one used against you. Once you are used to this, you can monitor your position in your regular grappling sessions to notice where the possibilities for eye gouging might arise, even though you aren't actually training them at the moment. As with the eye pokes, I consider having strong defenses against eye gouges to be more important than the ability to use them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Lesson learned: a flicking poke to the eyes can be very effective, but is not a guarantee.

Nothing is a guarantee, but I would also tend to suspect that the average street self-defense encounter would not be against a well-trained martial artist with the experience, ability, and tenacity to do what you did in your third experience.

Another consideration: what about the risks of breaking or jamming your own fingers when you extend a fast poke and connect with something other than your opponents eyes, such as a forehead or an elbow block? I don't know that I would rely on the technique, but I certainly want to make sure that my own defensive structure protects me from accidental or deliberate eye pokes.

I believe some arts practice an eye rake as opposed to a stiff-fingered poke. Our own 'knife hand' strike is done with the hand slightly cupped, as if scooping water, rather than rigid and stiff. I hope that might protect from jamming them, to some extent.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Nothing is a guarantee, but I would also tend to suspect that the average street self-defense encounter would not be against a well-trained martial artist with the experience, ability, and tenacity to do what you did in your third experience.

Hell, a semi-trained martial artist wouldn't be able to do what he did. If my eyes started watering after getting hit in them, I don't think I would have the focus to finish without my vision. Very impressed, Tony!

 

[Tez3]

I should say in the original thread where the subject came up the person who mentioned it was actually talking abut eye gouging as actually taking the eyeball out of it's socket and not a poke or strike in the eye. It was proposed too that it was a defence against a rear naked choke.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I should say in the original thread where the subject came up the person who mentioned it was actually talking abut eye gouging as actually taking the eyeball out of it's socket and not a poke or strike in the eye. It was proposed too that it was a defence against a rear naked choke.

Thanks, I had not read the thread in question. I'm thinking not a good defense, although frankly, once the choke is on, there aren't many good defenses against it. Tap, I'd say, or you're going to sleep, maybe forever.

 

[punisher73]

Thanks, I had not read the thread in question. I'm thinking not a good defense, although frankly, once the choke is on, there aren't many good defenses against it. Tap, I'd say, or you're going to sleep, maybe forever.

Agreed, if it is a rear naked choke then the person probably has grappling skills and knows how to tuck the head to avoid just that thing. Now if it is just a person grabbing you from behind more with the arm around your neck throat and not necessarily knowing what they are doing you stand more of a chance with that counter.

Mr. Mattocks: As a side note, for your knifehand strike (cupping as opposed to ridged) is that a dojo preference or a lineage preference? When speaking/sharing with other IR people they all seemed to do it with more of the ridged hand idea and fingers more straight.