Everyone seems to look down on TKD...

[del]

... for it's quick promotion system. They seem to think practitioners of TKD are just "on the 80's MA bandwagon." TKD *does* have a quick promotion system. But, by the time you gain a black belt, you've only learned the basics.

Black is where the real learning starts.


So think of it as a two-belt system. White and black. All the other belts aren't the equivalent of a whole belt. They are just fillers while you learn the techniques.

 

[Battousai]

The black belt signafies basic understanding in almost every martial art. TKD cannot say that they promote fast because a black belt in TKD has only studied basic material, almost all martial art schools agree that their black belt curriculum consists only of basic material.

For why everyone seems to look down on TKD look under the TKD section at the Mouthoff at TKD thread.

 

[Kirk]

There's posts all around this board about this. The general
consensus is that (now not ALL but a LOT here in the U.S.)
TKD is MOST associated with the McDojo, which:

1) Guarantees black belts in X amount of time.
2) Claim to teach self defense, but actually don't.
3) Award high belt ranks to children.
4) Charge high rates for belt tests.
5) Promotions are based on knowledge of forms/katas
and board breaking. Not on defensive techniques.
6) Promote high and fancy kicks as the ultimate in self defense.

Okay, so lets say that b.b. is a knowledge of the basics. A true
test of the value would be, fight another b.b. in a different art.
If you're a b.b. in TKD, arrange to have a hard hitting, yet safe
as you can get it fight with someone in a chinese or japanese
art. See how ya fair. I have a friend that studies TKD, and his
favorite threat is "I'll kick ya in the head". I don't doubt that
he has the ability to kick me in the head. But he doesn't have
the ability to do it so fast that I can't block it, and now there's a
travel time of putting his foot back on the ground. And I've seen
his kicks in the air. He has to put himself WAY off balance to
deliver such a kick, which gives me a monster advantage. He's
only be studying a year, I've only been studying kenpo for 8
months. He weighs about 190. I'm 375. He feels effective in
the street, I don't. But I do feel with our limited training, I'd
waste him in a fight. He presents himself as if he's invulnerable.

Back to the basics issue. If you get a b.b. in 2 years in TKD, and
most others take 4 or 5 (some even longer), then what does
that say about TKD? To me it says there's a LOT less basics in
TKD than most other arts.

 

[KumaSan]

Originally posted by Kirk

To me it says there's a LOT less basics in TKD than most other arts.

I've never thought of it that way, but I'll be damned if that doesn't hit it right on the head.

 

[Monkey King]

I have a friend who is a 4th dan in TKD. (Is it dan?)
Anyway, I have a lot of respect for him and TKD. Every TKD school I've seen rewards for effort and discipline. They produce, to use an old cliche..."honorable" students and practitioners.

I have nothing but respect for anyone who studies TKD. Who cares how they promote, as long as they keep pumping out quality people...that's all that matters.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk

Back to the basics issue. If you get a b.b. in 2 years in TKD, and most others take 4 or 5 (some even longer), then what does
that say about TKD? To me it says there's a LOT less basics in
TKD than most other arts.

Leaving TKD aside, is that bad in and of itself--having relatively few basics? I would say that Modern Arnis has relatively few basics--(kick)boxing too. How long does it take to become the boxing equivalent of a black belt?

I'm not sure that having few basics is bad, or that having many is good.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador

Leaving TKD aside, is that bad in and of itself--having relatively few basics? I would say that Modern Arnis has relatively few basics--(kick)boxing too. How long does it take to become the boxing equivalent of a black belt?

I'm not sure that having few basics is bad, or that having many is good.

Good Point!

 

[Danny]

Think whatever you like. I know I deserve to wear my Black Belt, and so does ever other Black Belt at my club. And we would all be more then willing to show anyone interested in coming down to our dojang why that is the case.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Hey Danny, what school and federation are you with? I run Honour TKD in Ottawa and am in the ITF. I have to disagree with you a bit.....as an instructor I see alot of black belts at other schools and trainings that certainly do not deserve the rank that they wear. If all the black belts at your school are deserving than I think you are lucky.

I run a TKD school and even I have to admit their are plenty of McDojos in TKD. Theres some in every art but the reason you see more in TKD is because there are MORE TKD schools than any other art in the world. It's simply a numbers game, more schools equals more bad schools and more good ones. But people only like to talk about the bad ones.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Danny]

That is true sir, but people seem to be lumping McDojo TKD in with the real thing and I'm just tired of trying to explain to people that I am much better then that McDojo student they knew, even though they are a higher belt then me.

See my profile for where I'm from sir.

 

[shihantae]

Hi Danny,
I know it is bad when everyone wants to clump the good with the bad, but you must realize, that most people do not understand that there are different schools of TKD, or even different schools of thought.

The is ITF(Which I Hold rank in),WTF, and of course ATA. ATA didn';t help itself much here. Theri people went to open tournaments bragging about how they could beat everyone, but then refused to produce the fact.

It takes all kinds in this world, and unfortunately as has been stated before, most people seem to only want to see the bad.
It has been the same for Americanfreestyle. It is a good system, but because some poeple claim the style and run Mcdojos, everyone thinks all American freetyle systems are that way.

My advice is to just look over what others say. You know you have earned your rank, and you know what it took to get you there. that is all that counts.

Peace,
Tae

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Danny

That is true sir, but people seem to be lumping McDojo TKD in with the real thing and I'm just tired of trying to explain to people that I am much better then that McDojo student they knew, even though they are a higher belt then me.

I'm not one to question your skill at all. I do question why these
different federations allow SO MANY bad schools to continue
though ... they should go in and do a mop up.

I've seen quite a few TKD schools in the town where I live, and
when you walk in and see a 3rd Dan 12 year old, ya kinda get a
clue. This is my sole experience in TKD. I haven't seen any of the
NON McDojo TKD schools. But I doubt any of the b.b.'s there will
say "I'm not the real thing" or "I do belong to a
McDojo". I'm not implying that you don't deserve yours, sir. I
don't know you, so I couldn't say one way or the other. I've
heard mcdojo stories for my style, just not as often.

 

[islandtime]

Originally posted by Danny

Think whatever you like. I know I deserve to wear my Black Belt, and so does ever other Black Belt at my club. And we would all be more then willing to show anyone interested in coming down to our dojang why that is the case.

..................................................................................
Danny, feel free to defend your art. We all would.

I think what you are missing is the mindset in the US. There are so many Mcdojos that everyone seems to think that all of TKD stucks. They are very closedminded about this. In my area if you mention to someone that you study MA. They automatically assume that it is TKD (99 times out of 100).

There are wonderfull TKD instructors out there and they put out fine students. We are just jaded because of the volume of crappy schools and money hungry franchises

When I was a brown belt in TKD There was a first degree in TKD that I knew that went to Korea to study. He lived at the dojang in Korea for a year and came back as a second degree. Guess what they had him do while we was there.. He learned one new form and worked basics. That is all he did for a year, mostly work basics. Man his basics were impressive though when he came back.

We all would hope that the instructors were all above board but they aren't.
You are extremely lucky to be in a fine school with good students and instructors.
Keep up the studies


Gene Gabel:asian:

 

[Seig]

I can't speak for others, but I will give you mytake on it. I run a Kenpo school. Having said that, I also hold black belts in TKD. Now, I do borrow form my TKD experience. In the area I live in, there are 4 dojos/dojangs including me. There is Gary Crim's Red Dragon (TKD) Zingg's (Primarily Okinawan) Me (Kenpo) and the McDojo in the shopping center(TKD). The reason that particular school is classified as a "McDojo": 1.) High fees for classes and testing 2.) High Belts for low results 3.) No Honoring of people's experience, even within the same art. 4.) The franchise has removed instructors and changed management three times. 5.) They force you into an illegal contract. 6.) They claim theirs is the only "correct way" and do not honor other instructors or styles. That is what I know to be fact about the school. My opinion of what I have seen of the individual that currently runs the school: 1.) His hands are tied by the franchise 2.) He is a highly competent and talented practioner, yet a not so good instructor.
Now, my students have questioned me from time to time about why I have a tendency to bad mouth TKD, even though I am a BB in the style. My answer is simple, the way TKD teaches you to kick, in time, harms your knees and your hips. I hope you have noticed that I in know way bad mouthed Mister Crim. He is also teaches TKD and shares the same views I do in a LOT of areas. We are competitiors, yet friends. If someone comes to his dojo looking for more of what I teach or lives closer to me, he refers them to me and vice versa.
So you see, it is not TKD that I hold in low regard, it is the McDojo in general. TKD does seem to have more McDojos than any other art for a lot of the reasons mentioned, ie. there are more of them than the rest.
Just my $.08 worth ($.02 after taxes, currency exchange and taxes)

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by Kirk

[
Back to the basics issue. If you get a b.b. in 2 years in TKD, and
most others take 4 or 5 (some even longer), then what does
that say about TKD? To me it says there's a LOT less basics in
TKD than most other arts. [/B]

I believe there two main reasons people look down at TKD.

1. The amount of time it takes one to get Black Belt is around 2 years. One has to remember you are trying to compare apples to Oranges. Tae Kwon Do has limited amount of techniques up to Black Belt. My main competitor is a ATA school, so I bought a book on TKD to get some insight and to see what they teach. Now I know they may not teach exactly what is in this book but it may be close. Here is what is listed in this book for white belt up to 1st Black. 9 Hand strike, 12 kicks, 7 forms, 8 self defense techniques, 20 offensive sparring techniques, 20 defensive techniques, 6 board breaking techniques, and rules. No wonder it only takes 2 years to get to Black Belt. You compare this with Ju Jutsu, Kung Fu, or any Japanese Martial Arts, you may have up to 1,000 different techniques. This just goes to show why it may take some one 4 years or more to reach Black Belt. The more material an Martial Art has the longer it takes to reach Black Belt.

2. Someone goes into a TKD school and sees an 8 year old Black Belt teaching a New adult student. This has happen to one of my friends, and was a major turn-off for her. Adults don't want to be taught by some young kid. Most adult are learning Martial Arts, for self defense 1st and getting in shape 2nd. Most kids have no concept of what self defense is, exspecially for adults. It's not like some typical school yard fight, pop someone in the mouth fights over and you are best friend with the person. With adults alot of fights someone is drunk/high. More times a weapon may come into play. Here recently kids have shown us this also. Most of us that teach both kids and adults teach them differently. In what we show and 8 year old compared to some 25 year old woman. With this I don't think kids should be teaching adults. But that is one thing some TKD schools do. I believe they do this so they don't have to pay for some adult instrutor.

Bob Thomas
:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

"the way TKD teaches you to kick, in time, harms your knees and your hips. "

I'm riddled with injuries but I train in various martial arts and gymnastics so I don't know what injury to attribute to what activity. Can you tell me a little more about the injuries associated with TKD kicks?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[arnisador]

In TKD one is often told to fully lock out the knee on kicks, which is believed to be damaging to the knees in the long run. In karate it's common to be told to only extend the knee 90-95%.

 

[Damian Mavis]

What about hip problems?

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[karatekid1975]

I didn't know that, Arnis. Sheesh and I do TKD. Well, I was taught in Tang Soo Do not to lock my knees out when I kick. I still don't eventhough I do TKD now. So it's news to me.

 

[arnisador]

Remember, I'm not a medical doctor, I just play one on the Net--but it is what I've been told and it seems sensible to me. Locking out the knees and elbows leads to long-term damage.

I am less sure what the issue with the hips is, however.