Everyone seems to look down on TKD...

[Chiduce]

I feel TKD is a very honorable system that promotes the way they feel a student should be promoted in a said amount of time. Students have always been conferred the balck belt rank in 1 to 2 years and in some cases a little les than 1yr. or 11 months in just about any school. It really depends on who you train with. Some masters promote their students within a year of training with them on and off. So, you could have a brown belt upon starting your training with a master of the system and be second black belt with the next 10 months; depending on what the master teaches you. TKD schools are usually frequented by school heads and oversee's masters giving seminars, private instruction and the like. Example; Master Fred Villari in 1967 begain training in Chinese Kenpo with Master Nick Cerio. In 1969 less than 2 yrs. later Villari receives his Shodan Black belt form Master Cerio! So, i don't see anything wrong with the policies within the schools and their parent organizations, because it is the politics of their system. All systems has the workings of internal administrative politics, pulling for or against them. :asian: Ami Tou Fou! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Hollywood1340]

Amen!

 

[Seig]

Ok, you all seem to be on the right track. As I said before, I'm not trying to bash TKD. The reasons it hurts your knees, hips, etc is actually fairly simple. The knees get torn up from hyper-extension and the hips get damaged through improper rotation. When you do a side kick by lifting your leg straight up and throwing the kick without rotating your kness back by your abdomen first, you nopt only put undue pressure on your kness, but also your hips. Do this about 10 times and I bet you walk away hurting. Over time it adds up.

 

[karatekid1975]

I seen people in my school throw roundhouse kicks wrong. They kinda just throw the leg out (similar to a front kick) with a little bit of an angle. That looks like it hurts.

 

[fist of fury]

My biggetst problem is around here all the TKD schools seem to be mcdojo's there' s one on every corner. None of seem to focus on anything but point sparring.

 

[Danny]

Am I the only one that doesn't hyper extend my joints when I'm not hitting something? Maybe it's just me but not doing full power, fully extending kicks in the air seems like a well "duh" kinda thing to me, up there with how not to smash your heel into the ground when you do an axe kick. Are some instructors out there actually telling there students to lock there joints while practicing kicking in the air?

 

[Ty K. Doe]

2. Someone goes into a TKD school and sees an 8 year old Black Belt teaching a New adult student. This has happen to one of my friends, and was a major turn-off for her. Adults don't want to be taught by some young kid.

O.k. I see the problem with an 8-year old black belt. However, I see no problems with advanced kids teaching new adults. During your first couple of weeks your only learning basics anyway. I know younger kids can tell you how to accurately throw a leg block, or how to hold your fist and rotate it as you punch. Anyway, your not going to learn self-defense in your first few classes anyway.

When you do a side kick by lifting your leg straight up and throwing the kick without rotating your kness back by your abdomen first, you nopt only put undue pressure on your kness, but also your hips.

TKD doesn't teach doing side kicks this way. Our side kick is alot like a back kick. Perhaps your thinking of a front leg round kick, where you aim your knee at your target then extend the leg. Properly done this does not put undue pressure on your knees, or hips. I guess doing splits also puts undue pressure on your hips.

In TKD one is often told to fully lock out the knee on kicks, which is believed to be damaging to the knees in the long run.

Never been told to do this when kicking in the air. Actually been told to do the opposite. Never lock the knees or elbows with throwing techniques in the air.

As far as TKD having fewer techniques, perhaps they do. If someone is practicing 1000 different techniques how many of them are actually practicle. I would say that at least 95% of the TKD techniques that I've been taught are practicle. How many different types of blocks, or kicks do you need?

I think people have a tendancy to give up on things they don't excell at or don't understand. There are many different arts, for many different people with different abillities. In many cases it is true that you do have to be somewhat athletic, or at least have some dexterity or coordination to really do well. People who don't have that usually give up and move to another art that fits their abillities. Their misunderstanding of TKD very often leads them to the conclusion that TKD is not for real, or at least no good. Many times the quality of the art has nothing to do with the art itself, but the instruction. The fact that there is money making potential in the MA has unfortunately unleashed a flury of Mcdojo's. Which creats schools with instructors that know just enough to get by and make a living. However, some people just aren't good at teaching, while others are excellent teachers. There are just too many factors to blame bad TKD on TKD.

 

[Battousai]

Hip injuries:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1472

Many TKD and Karate schools teach really bad ways of kicking that over time can cause your hips to dislocate.

 

[Damian Mavis]

My god, welp....even I, a TKD instructor can learn something new. It totally makes sense that you would damage your knees and hips by kicking air, my question to other instructors is why the heck are you kicking air? I realise now that the majority of my injuries are from over doing it in gymnastics as I never trained to kick air and I don't teach my students to kick air. ( my knee problems are from pounding the floor for tumbling) I don't have any problem with my hips and my knee prolelms are in a different part of the knee than the area a hyper extension would damage.

Back to kicking air.....my instructor very very rarely had us kick air....95% of the training was full contact pad kicking....with a resistant object there is no hyper extension of the knee and dislocation pressure of the hip. As an instructor i think back to the few times I kicked air repeatedly in a drill and thought "boring". I always loved kicking the shileds as hard as I could and that is what my students do if they arent kicking eachother.

I apologise to anyone who does alot of air kicking training... I just don't find it very productive, fun or good for the body.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Turner]

That sucks, because kicking and punching air is the best way to develop fluidity and speed. A person that constantly kicks a sheild will develop a lot of power in their kick but not have great speed. Kicking the air develops speed but doesn't help power. There have been studies done that back this statement up, but most martial artists will know this from the times that they go on vacation for a while and only practice in the air and find that they are faster. I, personally, like to kick 60% bag and 40% air to develop both... I'll probably reduce that to 75-25, but I won't cut it out altogether. Speed is good.

 

[Turner]

On the topic of looking down on TKD... I've not trained in TKD, but I've taught or trained with a great deal of TKD-er's and that is where I develop my opinion: the product of their training.

Some of the most frustrating things I've dealt with is a TKD Black Belt coming to my class and having such beautiful kicks that have no purpose. I had to constantly remind most of them that I was not 7 foot tall so the kicks that they were using in self defense and combinations wouldn't work. Sure, I agree that the higher you can kick the more powerful you can kick lower, but there is a time and a place for that and its not while you are doing self defense.

Self defense is another issue; it seems that the guys I've dealt with had no concept of self defense. I had one TKD black belt take an introductory class and decide to berate me for standing in a 45 degree fighting stance saying that the side facing stance was better because it didn't offer as much of a target, so I simply shoved his lead shoulder sideways and took his back. Some of the techniques I've been shown are great for sparring and competition but would lead to a cracked skull in a real fight.

I don't like TKD/TSD/Many Forms of Karate because they are overly simplistic and seem to be geared torwards children... but that's just me. Each person has their preference and while I wouldn't study TKD/TSD and many forms of Karate doesn't mean that they don't have worth... they just aren't for me.

 

[Damian Mavis]

Turner, I'm fast...really fast. If when your kicking the pads your not working on speed, something is wrong. Sure I can kick the pad strong and slow and send my holder 10 feet back but thats from pushing power.... shattering power requires speed and if someones not working on their shattering power than they are missing the whole point of striking. As an example I'll use a puching bag, it swings all the way back if you hit it hard and slow. It barely swings at all but has a huge dent on it if you kick fast and hard. Good way to tell if your kicking fast. In a real fight you usually want bone breaking power, fast and hard. No point in training for anything else.

That guy who berated you on your stance is most likely a nitwit and probably straight out of a McDojo, please don't judge the rest of us that take street defence seriously based on that guy. I have a field day with those guys too.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by Ty K. Doe

TKD doesn't teach doing side kicks this way. Our side kick is alot like a back kick. Perhaps your thinking of a front leg round kick, where you aim your knee at your target then extend the leg. Properly done this does not put undue pressure on your knees, or hips. I guess doing splits also puts undue pressure on your hips.

I'm glad that is not true in your school, but in 90% of the TKD schools I have seen, and I have traveled quite extensively. They do in fact, just that. I'm glad to see, by your description, that you were taught properly.

 

[Turner]

No, there is no way that I could judge everyone according to what I've seen and experienced. I'm yound, but I am wise enough to know that there are exceptions to every rule and sometimes the rule is not really what we expect it to be. I just know that in my area... A tiny city... has about ten TKD classes and all of them are pretty worthless. I'm well travelled <moved over 30 times in my life> and I've never seen a TKD school that I like, but I'm sure that there are some out there that are quite awesome. I wouldn't want to give the impression that I'm style bashing... just saying that <I> didn't like what I saw and the style is not for me.

 

[karatekid1975]

When I moved to NY, I looked for schools. Most were TKD. This one school I went to was awful (Mcdojang). No real skill in their advance students, and the guy was trying to sucker me into signing a contract right there. I walked out. I saw a few more similar to that (Mostly in the Rochester area where there is TKD everywhere), eventhough I missed a few. I got frustrated and stopped looking.

Then I noticed a little school in a little town where I live. I checked it out. I liked everything about it. So, I do agree that there's a lot of Mcdojangs out there, you can't judge every TKD school like that. You just have to look around.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by Turner

Some of the most frustrating things I've dealt with is a TKD Black Belt coming to my class and having such beautiful kicks that have no purpose. I had to constantly remind most of them that I was not 7 foot tall so the kicks that they were using in self defense and combinations wouldn't work. Sure, I agree that the higher you can kick the more powerful you can kick lower, but there is a time and a place for that and its not while you are doing self defense.

Self defense is another issue; it seems that the guys I've dealt with had no concept of self defense. Some of the techniques I've been shown are great for sparring and competition but would lead to a cracked skull in a real fight.

Turner, I have had the same problem when someone has study TKD. The first thing they what to show you is how high they can jump and kick and you see that great. But in the back of your mind your thinking can he breakfall when I slam him into the ground. I had a 3rd Black Belt in TKD do exactly this. Also I show a student who was taking Kempo and TKD at the same time some stuff. He was doing TKD just because it was a college course with college babes in it. He was taking Kempo because he wanted to defend himself. Show him a wrist lock for a lapel grab and leg block for kick. He kinda hurt a couple of his TKD'ers. The reason they got hurt was they had never be expose to either of these techniques, and by no means did I tell him to hurt is fellow Martial artist.
Bob Thomas

 

[Turner]

That is something interesting that I really didn't pick up on until recently. Break-falls. I studied at a McDojang for several years and I can't remember a single time we practiced break-falls. I trained in Shorinji Kempo at the same time where we did them all the time because we were being thrown left and right so I didn't notice too much... and was probably glad of it because I would go straight from Shorinji Kempo to TSD and having been thrown all over the place I was happy remain standing through the class.

Why do most martial artists look down on TKD? I think Kirk said it best when he said "Claim to teach self defense, but actually don't." So much for those tenets of Honor and Integrity that you hear so much about. In a broad stereotypical sense, how can you respect a group of people who aren't honorable? I know that there are some TKD schools that teach self defense, but the majority of the ones I've seen just play games... so if you do a lot of self defense training, good for you! If you don't, shame on you! If people come to you telling you that they want to get into shape but want to do the martial arts because it has the added bonus of learning self-defense and you accept them as students, you are a fraud if you don't provide that to them... that may be a little brutal, but that is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.

 

[Shadowdean]

2 years to bb in TKD? WTF....that is a sad statment on the state of the teachers in the art, NOT the art...it took me damn near 4 years to get Black, and even then that was the beginning for me.
Lets remember, that ANY system can say "you'll be a cracker jack master in x years."

 

[donald]

I believe Damien(sp?) hit it right dead center. When he mentioned other styles/studios being as bad... TKD does have a misaligned rep., but I remember when kenpo was dissed OFTEN. Most often as unworkable gibberish in motion. Admitedly there were (are) disreputable kenpo instructors who are more interested in your testing fee than your ability to execute the material. However I think that there are, and have been some very talented, and reputable kenpo instructors. Who not only make a living at a full time studio, but do it with class. For everyone who says hear,hear. I say don't you think there are TKD instructors with just as much on the ball? And right along those lines why the big brouhaha over the 2yrs. thing? Where is it written that a student has to study for 5,6 years to reach basic mastery of BASICS? I do believe that a kenpo 1st dan would KNOW MORE, but it does'nt mean that they are a better practioner. The bottom line is if your gonna get a rank dependent on monies paid. It don't matter whether you've studied for 5yrs., or 2. Because substandard is still substandard!

Salute in Christ,
Donald :asian:

 

[asoka]

Originally posted by Kirk

There's posts all around this board about this. The general
consensus is that (now not ALL but a LOT here in the U.S.)
TKD is MOST associated with the McDojo, which:

1) Guarantees black belts in X amount of time.
2) Claim to teach self defense, but actually don't.
3) Award high belt ranks to children.
4) Charge high rates for belt tests.
5) Promotions are based on knowledge of forms/katas
and board breaking. Not on defensive techniques.
6) Promote high and fancy kicks as the ultimate in self defense.

Okay, so lets say that b.b. is a knowledge of the basics. A true
test of the value would be, fight another b.b. in a different art.
If you're a b.b. in TKD, arrange to have a hard hitting, yet safe
as you can get it fight with someone in a chinese or japanese
art. See how ya fair. I have a friend that studies TKD, and his
favorite threat is "I'll kick ya in the head". I don't doubt that
he has the ability to kick me in the head. But he doesn't have
the ability to do it so fast that I can't block it, and now there's a
travel time of putting his foot back on the ground. And I've seen
his kicks in the air. He has to put himself WAY off balance to
deliver such a kick, which gives me a monster advantage. He's
only be studying a year, I've only been studying kenpo for 8
months. He weighs about 190. I'm 375. He feels effective in
the street, I don't. But I do feel with our limited training, I'd
waste him in a fight. He presents himself as if he's invulnerable.

Back to the basics issue. If you get a b.b. in 2 years in TKD, and
most others take 4 or 5 (some even longer), then what does
that say about TKD? To me it says there's a LOT less basics in
TKD than most other arts.

To me this shows how easy it must be to get a black belt in TKD,which obviously means it doesn't take much work.I think another reason people look down on TKD is because most people see it as a limited art which concentrates solely kicks,kicks and more kicks.Most if not all TKD kicks can be considered useless and can be seen coming.

2 years to get a black in TKD is not very long.I took karate and for black belt it takes 4-5 yrs for most people.In Pankration it takes 7 yrs.to reach black level,however most pankrationists after only third level(orange)can take on most black belts in any other style.

It's no wonder TKD is considered a joke by many people.