Ever lost in rank?

[Kacey]

My school has three status for rank:
Active (Training at least 4x a month)
Inactive (Haven't trained for 61 days-10 months): Must retest for current belt level and pass with 95% to go on to new material.
Retired (Haven't trained for 11 months+): Must retest for all previous belt ranks and pass with 95% or higher before being allowed to go on to new materials.

What happens to someone who can't meet the requirements through no fault of their own? Injury, for example, or can't put in the hours due to parenthood? I understand maintaining standards, but this seems rather excessive to me - there were things I could do physically when I started at 20 that are never going to happen now, at 40 - my knees just won't take it - and I've taken time off from training (although not from instructing) because I was in graduate school and couldn't work full time, go to school half time (2-3 classes/semester), teach TKD 2 days a week, and train with my instructor (although I did practice at home) - there just wasn't time. Should I, then, have to retest for my rank because I spent two years in graduate school earning an advanced degree, and improving my job skills and pay scale in the bargain?

What about someone who has a child with medical needs, who can't come to class because of the needs of the child? A person who contracts a significant illness, or breaks a leg in an accident? All of these people are required to re-earn a rank they already hold? As I said, I understand the need to maintain standards, and have no problems with requiring these people to regain a certain skill level before moving on (that is, the same skill level as others who are cleared for testing), but I find retesting excessive, and likely to cause people to choose other arts, or not return at all. As John Lennon said, "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." I know what you're saying, but I cannot agree with penalizing someone whose life prevented them from training - and the way you've presented it, without any allowance for the occurrences of life, I do see it as a penalty.

 

[IWishToLearn]

What happens to someone who can't meet the requirements through no fault of their own? Injury, for example, or can't put in the hours due to parenthood? I understand maintaining standards, but this seems rather excessive to me - there were things I could do physically when I started at 20 that are never going to happen now, at 40 - my knees just won't take it - and I've taken time off from training (although not from instructing) because I was in graduate school and couldn't work full time, go to school half time (2-3 classes/semester), teach TKD 2 days a week, and train with my instructor (although I did practice at home) - there just wasn't time. Should I, then, have to retest for my rank because I spent two years in graduate school earning an advanced degree, and improving my job skills and pay scale in the bargain?

What about someone who has a child with medical needs, who can't come to class because of the needs of the child? A person who contracts a significant illness, or breaks a leg in an accident? All of these people are required to re-earn a rank they already hold? As I said, I understand the need to maintain standards, and have no problems with requiring these people to regain a certain skill level before moving on (that is, the same skill level as others who are cleared for testing), but I find retesting excessive, and likely to cause people to choose other arts, or not return at all. As John Lennon said, "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans." I know what you're saying, but I cannot agree with penalizing someone whose life prevented them from training - and the way you've presented it, without any allowance for the occurrences of life, I do see it as a penalty.

I suppose it would depend on your definition of the phrase "retesting".

The way we define it is, your instructor has you go through all of your material to find out where you've lost a step or three and checks off what you need to fix before you move on. There are no minimum time limits for retests - conceivably a person could pass all their retests on the same day. You've already earned the rank and you are not "penalized" or in any way assuaged otherwise - we use retests to figure out where you need the help to get back up to speed before we give you new material to work on. If someone takes time off - they will lose a step or three. It is just as unfair to those who train constantly and test when they are ready to, to see someone come back after being gone and be allowed to work on new material even though they clearly cannot perform the material they previously tested out on at the level they are capable of.

Level they are capable of is subjective to the person. We expect 100% effort for your material - but what person X is able to do does not equate to person Y as we are all different. Just as person X at 20 is not going to have the same level of understanding - but may have more physical agility than person X at 30, 40, or 50. No matter what rank a person is, they are responsible for all previous material - and we hold every member accountable to the same standard. There are considerations made for physical limitations or handicaps, including one instance currently where one of my senior students was born with lungs 30% smaller than the norm. He is by nature allowed longer and more frequent breaks during class and/or testing.

I appreciate the feedback.

 

[charyuop]

I suppose it would depend on your definition of the phrase "retesting".

The way we define it is, your instructor has you go through all of your material to find out where you've lost a step or three and checks off what you need to fix before you move on. There are no minimum time limits for retests - conceivably a person could pass all their retests on the same day. You've already earned the rank and you are not "penalized" or in any way assuaged otherwise - we use retests to figure out where you need the help to get back up to speed before we give you new material to work on. If someone takes time off - they will lose a step or three. It is just as unfair to those who train constantly and test when they are ready to, to see someone come back after being gone and be allowed to work on new material even though they clearly cannot perform the material they previously tested out on at the level they are capable of.

Level they are capable of is subjective to the person. We expect 100% effort for your material - but what person X is able to do does not equate to person Y as we are all different. Just as person X at 20 is not going to have the same level of understanding - but may have more physical agility than person X at 30, 40, or 50. No matter what rank a person is, they are responsible for all previous material - and we hold every member accountable to the same standard. There are considerations made for physical limitations or handicaps, including one instance currently where one of my senior students was born with lungs 30% smaller than the norm. He is by nature allowed longer and more frequent breaks during class and/or testing.

I appreciate the feedback.

I think this is what my Sensei was talking about. I don't think his organization (by the way XS it is called ASU, Aikido School of Ueshiba) has fun in taking away Dan or BB. I think it is more a matter of quality the organization offer to his new students. If a BB away for several months or years come back to the organization to teach again, I as a student, would for sure like that teacher to show that he/she can still teach the same quality stuff he could before he left.
That doesn't mean if you lost your leg and stayed away 3 years to heal, thus you can't kick anymore, you will never have the same rank. But it means that if you show me that you still remember all the techniques required for that rank and you remember well enough to teach them and correct errors that students will do while practicing them you will mantain the same rank.

How many of you would like to be operated by a surgeon who hasn't practiced for 3 or 5 years? First for sure I would like him to be retested to make sure he wouldn't kill me with stupid errors.

I don't think it should be a matter of Ego here, I earned it and it is mine, nobody can touch it. I don't even think there is a Martial Art philosophy that teaches such an attachment to a material thing instead of knowledge. Here it has to do with you facing the fact that you might have lost something in your knowledge in the time you were away, so you need to catch up with your collegue even rank. Losing a little in rank after sometime of absence shouldn't hurt your personal feelings or offend you, but it actually should make you realize where you got weak and work on that aspect of your MA knowledge.

 

[Shotochem]

It all comes down to politics.

This is why I probably won't let myself get talked into taking anymore tests than I feel like taking.

Politics and closed-mindedness is what made me leave my previous art and almost MA in general. I learn for me, not for rank and adoration of all the little belts beneath me. :ultracool

-Marc-

 

[Kacey]

I suppose it would depend on your definition of the phrase "retesting".

Thanks for the explanation. From that, I think your instructor and mine are doing the same thing - making sure people who've taken time off have regained what they've lost - it's just a little more formal the way your instructor is doing it. It hasn't come up enough for us to require a formal procedure.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have striped a person of his rank befor and thrown them out of my school. However they left with whatever knowledge they had 9 be that alot or a small amount) they also left with the knowledge they thought they had ( more than they will ever have)
I have passed a student and given them the rank they already had because they never signed in or used that rank so I figured they needed to be reminded not rewarded

 

[still learning]

Hello, Just another point here? Ranking has more to do with sports stuffs.

Like who the best golfer (Tiger Woods) in ranking, But he doesn't win everytime.

The best football team,07 Colts...they won the Super Bowl...next year...who know's. But there are rank the best for 07.

Defineing RANKING...can have more than one meaning.
====================================

I rank this topic as :Interesting ...........Aloha

 

[dragonswordkata]

I went back to study after a 10 year absence from active training. I had earned my BB but when I went back I knew maybe 1/2 my old material. I was feeling un worthly of the BB since I had fogotten so much but my instructors took the philosophy of most of you folks, I had earned it, it was mine, even if I had to re learn the old material.
I would have worn what rank they wished me to, but I felt honored that they still respected my past efferts.

 

[Last Fearner]

I will agree with, and support the position of those here who compared the Dan rank to a college degree. Once it is earned, the certificate hangs on your wall, and the belt is yours to keep. The Black Belt rank is yours for life. In my training, color belts are temporary. They are grades that change as you learn. If you are absent from training, or if you violate the rules, a color belt (geup) may be demoted all the way back to white belt.

However, a Black Belt Degree (Dan) is permanent. The only thing that an instructor or organization can rightfully do is to place a Black Belt on probation for their conduct, for lack of attendance, or for failure to keep their skills current. This does not mean they are "demoted" or any past achievement is taken away. It just keeps them at the same rank until they improve what they are lacking.

The issue of being taught by someone who has been absent for some time and does not know their material is a separate issue from rank. Teaching credentials must be kept current or the authority to teach can be revoked. This does not mean the person won't quit their school and go teach on their own (unqualified people do it all the time). If a person returns to training after a long absence, what does it hurt that they wear the rank of their last promotion. It hurts no one. They just should not be allowed to promote until they are up to speed, nor to teach until they are refreshed on current material.

An instructor or organization who feels a Black Belt has dishonored themselves can revoke the official recognition of the rank, or the status of the Black Belt to no longer be "in good standing" with that school, but the rank itself can not truly be removed. Only their acknowledgment of it. Playing games with rank is often the sign of insecurity of the Instructor.

"Dan" is a degree in education, and a degree is permanent - - even if you forget what you learned, or can no longer demonstrate it well. Teaching is what you know only requires being refreshed and not that you perform like a twenty year old. Teachers should keep their rank, and only be required to be able to share the knowledge they learned when they earned their degree.

That's my opinion.
CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[MJS]

I was talking with my Sensei who is a Godan (5th Dan). He explained me that Dan is not something you keep for life. The more you train the more you go up in the ranking, but it can also happen the opposite, that is going down the rank.

I was wondering if anyone actually happened to have lost Dan in their Black Belt system.

I've never heard of anything like this before. IMO, once rank is earned, it can't be taken away. However, as it was mentioned, the person that issued you the rank can refuse to recognize it or recognize that you're a part of the school.

Another way of looking at this could be, just because someone may be (insert rank here) it should not mean that their learning process stops. We should always strive to better ourselves. This can be done thru ways other than physical techniques. It could be taking a deeper looking into the material that you already know. Do you really understand the ins and outs of a technique? This could mean doing a deeper research into the history of the art you train in. And of course, it can also be done by expanding your knowledge from another art.

Mike

 

[searcher]

In my earlier post I mentioned that I read a book that quoted Mas Oyama stating that rank is not forever. The book is Zen Combat by Jay Gluck. It is interesting and is written in the sixties while gluck was in Japan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

(by the way XS it is called ASU, Aikido School of Ueshiba)

My bad, sorry, I meant style

Styles of Aikido
Aikikai
Yoshinkan
Yoseikan
Shodokan Aikido
Ki Society
Iwama

 

[IcemanSK]

I'm with Kacey & others who've said, like a college degree, BB rank cannot be revoked. "They can't suck the knowledge out of your head." Now, if one doesn't train, skills go away.

I came back to traditional MA after a long stint in boxing. I was in shape, physically, but it took a while to recover my MA skills. Yet, I was still able to teach my 1st night back.

 

[charyuop]

My bad, sorry, I meant style

Styles of Aikido
Aikikai
Yoshinkan
Yoseikan
Shodokan Aikido
Ki Society
Iwama

Aikikai.

Iceman, I read that you are Nidan. Fine, what if tomorrow you started training under a Sandan or Yondan who didn't practice the art for 10 years. Would you fully trust what he teaches you (above all being a Nidan you already have a deep knowledge of your Art). Wouldn't you prefere that the San/Yondan would be retested to make sure he teaches you the real Art and maybe he doesn't teach you wrong? Or maybe teach you something mixed to another Art that he might have been practicing meanwhile?
Taking away the Dan shouldn't be taken as personla offense. Moreover I am sure an organization before taking away a Dan will give the person all the time and chances to bring himself up to date before retesting. I don't think it really happened in my organization, but the rules are set for a chance to happen in case you don't show yourself being worth it again.

Everyone compares a degree to the Black Belt, but there is a huge difference in it. I get a degree and then I go find a job, that might be related or not to the degree. Possessing a Black Belt means you are gonna teach your knowledge to others, but if the knowledge is temporary gone what is the meaning of teaching, thus of the Black Belt?
I can go buy tomorrow a Balck Belt and it would have the same value of the Black Belt who stayed away for 10 years from the Art, neither one of us (with different degrees of course) would be fit to teach the Art.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I disagree that having a black belt means you are going to teach your knowledge to others. You can teach someone methods but I truly believe that someone is either born with the ability to teach people things or they aren't. Not everyone enjoys teaching but may really enjoying training and still be a black belt.

 

[IWishToLearn]

There are hundreds of black belts in every city. Very few have the mettle to be a teacher. Dennis Conatser wrote a fantastic article on what being a teacher means. It isn't just standing in front of a class and giving directions.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Aikikai.

Actualy it sounds like you can loose more than Rank in Aikikai

Aikikai
http://www.aikikai.or.jp/eng/index.htm


Click Regulations
Click International Regulations (Revised)

Article 5 : CANCELLATION OF HOMBU RECOGNITION
In a case where an Aikido organization with Hombu Recognition violates the provisions of these Regulations and creates serious obstacles for the dissemination of Aikido by the Hombu, the Hombu will, both verbally and in writing, urge the adherence to the provisions of these Regulations. If the organization does not demonstrate to do so, Hombu Recognition may be cancelled. The qualifications of the Aikido organization (Chapter 4) will cease to exist.

 

[Ceicei]

There are hundreds of black belts in every city. Very few have the mettle to be a teacher. Dennis Conatser wrote a fantastic article on what being a teacher means. It isn't just standing in front of a class and giving directions.

Does anyone know if that article is posted somewhere here on MT?

- Ceicei

 

[IWishToLearn]

http://www.ikko.com I believe is his website address. It's in the articles section.

http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/instructortips-ki.htm is the direct address of the article.

 

[Ceicei]

http://www.ikko.org I believe is his website address. It's in the articles section.

It's a dead link. Sorry...