Ah drill...actually I can match that, my other half did two tours on the Queens Colour Squadron,
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Ever heard of Freestyle Nunchaku?
- Thread starter thexxx1
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Ah drill...actually I can match that, my other half did two tours on the Queens Colour Squadron,
- Thread Starter
- #42
As soon as possible i plan to. getting space to do a video can be difficult occasionally, but i'm workin on it
So who did you get your kobudo from? How long did you study with them? Nunchaku-do ... where's it from?
Reason I ask... there's no weaponry in TKD unless it was introduced from the outside.
- Thread Starter
- #44
Master Chris Gehring, 6th degree black belt, was my weapons, and TaeKwonDo instructor from white until black belt, over 9 or 10 years. Under him we learned 13 weapons ranging from nunchaku to cane, 3 sectional staff, bo staff, kamas, escrima, etc... I honestly have no idea at all where nunchaku-do is from or why master gehring called it that, But that was his name for it and his definition was "The art or Nunchaku" We moved and ended up having to leave that school. i'm now under Master Chris Calo for TaeKwonDo and my other arts. and I'm the head weapons instructor at his school
You are saying you can do things that traditional martial artists can't but can you give us a reason why we'd want to? I would feel silly bopping around, because it looks like you are dancing, I really wouldn't want to look like that.
- Thread Starter
- #46
control. Speed. Balance, not of your body, but of the weapon. Reaction time, with the weapon... you may have great reflexes with your hands and feet but when holding a weapon the game is a different story. It's an extention of yourself yes, but you have to learn to use that just like you do with martial arts in general.
These freestyle movements are to come after your base is set like other have said. it's not something you just start out doing. You get a good solid foundation of the martial arts and of the weapon first, and these movements just improve upon the base you set for yourself. They give you a better understanding of how to move, how to strike, or to grab something with a nunchaku. All it is, is figuring out things you didn't know before. Whether they end up working, or they don't, by doing it you learn something.
I may look like i'm dancing but when punching is it best to start loose then at the very end tighten it all? or to stay tight the entire time you move?
I'm staying loose and without you even noticing, tightening on certain movements just like i would in a fight. Its not all just what it seems to be by watching.
Indagator
Blue Belt
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I'm not trying to sound like I am attacking what you are doing, or belittle it, but honestly it looks like party tricks. That being said, as a party trick it's pretty cool.
I remember younger days, when I travelled, and I came across a group of people that were into some really cool party tricks - even a fire breather from Cornwall. He was an okay guy. I was enthralled by the "fire poi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_poi#Fire_poi) and began to learn how to use them.
Most of the people I saw use them seemed to be scared of them, though, and just gently swung them around, trying to avoid the fire. Me, being the reckless youth that I was, started swinging them faster and faster and hit myself a lot with them in the process - through this I learned that contact with the fire poi doesn't usually cause burns.
And then it was like a penny dropped. I began doing insane tricks, throwing the fire poi up and catching them, using my foot to cause small flips (you make a downwards swing, and then gently scrape the side of your foot against the rope about halfway down. As it begins to wrap around your foot, withdraw your foot causing a small flip.) and in the end I was doing some really crazy stuff with them.
I think that this is the same sort of arena what you are doing comes into. Really, really cool to entertain people at a party. And yes, you will certainly be building a comfortability and "oneness" with the weapon, as well as a feel for it's movement. But still all said and done, it is what it is.
I remember younger days, when I travelled, and I came across a group of people that were into some really cool party tricks - even a fire breather from Cornwall. He was an okay guy. I was enthralled by the "fire poi" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_poi#Fire_poi) and began to learn how to use them.
Most of the people I saw use them seemed to be scared of them, though, and just gently swung them around, trying to avoid the fire. Me, being the reckless youth that I was, started swinging them faster and faster and hit myself a lot with them in the process - through this I learned that contact with the fire poi doesn't usually cause burns.
And then it was like a penny dropped. I began doing insane tricks, throwing the fire poi up and catching them, using my foot to cause small flips (you make a downwards swing, and then gently scrape the side of your foot against the rope about halfway down. As it begins to wrap around your foot, withdraw your foot causing a small flip.) and in the end I was doing some really crazy stuff with them.
I think that this is the same sort of arena what you are doing comes into. Really, really cool to entertain people at a party. And yes, you will certainly be building a comfortability and "oneness" with the weapon, as well as a feel for it's movement. But still all said and done, it is what it is.
Ok... getting a little better & clear picture.
Yeah... you have to understand. Many of us talking to you right now are traditional in training & background. We're coming from a background where it's not uncommon to spend more than a year or two just doing basics with a single weapon, let alone anything else.
Also... seriously about the video you put up. It's not helping your cause. You look like a raver with glow sticks at best. I don't believe anybody will doubt you can't spin the sticks about at a great speed & do some nifty tricks, but that's all that's being seen. And before you say it, many of us have worked with nunchaku before & longer than you've been breathing. Take that into consideration when you are reading our responses. It is what it is.
Nobody's downing your enthusiasm. Take that as a piece of constructive criticism. However you also have to take the bad with the good.
How will it improve my balance when Flying Crane says you have no stance? To be honest I can do all that they way I do it now, doing it traditionally.
- Thread Starter
- #50
Balance WITH the weapon. In your hand. having nothing to do with your feet or anything else... you have to know the balance of the weapon in order to use it correctly
And yes. you can get all of it from what you're doing traditionally. but u also gain MORE by doing what i do too.
And yes. you can get all of it from what you're doing traditionally. but u also gain MORE by doing what i do too.
I strongly encourage you to confirm your understanding of the weapons laws of Ohio. Your interpretation, as listed here, seems rather unique, though I don't know for sure. (We do have a couple of Ohio LEOs here, active or retired, that may shed some light on this.) But it's not so much simply carrying them that'll get you in trouble. Use them on someone, and you have a really good chance of finding yourself facing charges of malicious wounding, or assault with a deadly weapon. Simply having something available to you and visible to those around you that might be considered a deadly weapon can escalate a simple assault to felonious assault, depending on specifics of state law. In other words -- this is the sort of thing to be very sure you have right, especially if you teach others.
Sparring is actually pretty poor preparation for real violence. Of course, so is anything else other than the real thing. But, unless you're going to be dueling people, sparring starts with an artificial situation. Rory Miller has summed up the truth of real violence quite well with his four truths: real violence happens closer, faster, more suddenly, and more powerfully than you expect.
Drill absolutely has some important lessons, among them how to work together. But since at least the late 19th Century, probably earlier, it hasn't been an important combat skill for troops by itself, as it once was.
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Somehow I doubt it lol, when I train something in martial arts it's with the intent of learning to hurt someone not look pretty. I like ugly techniques that work.
Sanke
Green Belt
To most of this, I'd say refer to jks's post. It more or less sums upwhat I think on this, but I'll add a bit.
Where I'm from (Victoria, Australia, for context) carrying a weapon like that is an offence on it's own, using it, even for defence will almost defiantly leave you with some pretty serious criminal charges, so that's where I'm coming from when I ask you if you carry them with you.
There are some exceptions, you can carry certain weapons as long as they are covered from view, but obvious enough to see (i.e. in a sports bag or similar) so that you can be stopped and asked to show them at any time. Taking them out or using them though, and you're in some real trouble.
The idea of being able to carry them if you're trained in them also strikes meas odd, but as I'm not even from the same country, I'll leave it at that.
Your example of a fight is rather irrelevant. Not to cause offence, but all that shows is you were in a fight where you had them with you, as you didn't use them it really isn't an example of anything to do with the discussion. I'm glad youdidn't get beaten up and were able to defend yourself, it's just not the topic here.
For the record our system doesn't use sparing in the sense you seem to be implying, ours is more situation drilling, an aggressor, a defender and the clear goal of escaping as soon as possible. That's if we're talking street work, mind, our traditional work is based in kata, which is different from sparing again.
I would still say that that's a long way from reality. First, no groin strikes. That's one of the most valid targets in real combat, so by removing it you're taking away another option you would have otherwise had. That's not to say your sparing should include groin strikes, or it's bad you don't, it just makes it one step more removed from reality.
Your instructors stopping the fight when they feels a strike would end itis fair enough in it's own context, but really doesn't mean that the strike is actually effective. That's not a dig at your teachers, it's just not reasonable to say in a sparing match that 'Yes, that strike would 100% have knocked him out/killed him so therefore it works.', there's too much that might be missed, or misinterpreted.
Honestly, no, it really doesn't show that it 'actually works'. It can be difficult to prove the effectiveness of any archaic weapon in a modern setting. Short of actually going out and attacking people with them (which I'm sure I don't need to say you shouldn't do), there's no definite way to show that something works. Things like sparing are great, but they only show that the method works within the context of sparing, whichis very different to the context of real combat.
For the record, while I appreciate your views on the XMA style movements for building skills, in the end I disagree.
The best way to develop comfort with a weapon, speed, fluidity, etc is to practice using that weapon properly, be it paired kata, solo drills,etc, and just practising over and over again, until it's second nature.
What you're doing may have benefits to your traditional training, but at the end of the day, the biggest thing you'll get out of it is being good at twirling and spinning them, not being good with the weapon AS a weapon. There's only one way to do that, and it's a long and hard road.
If twirling and doing tricks is what you're after, fantastic, keep it up, you're looking good. If it's combative effectiveness and the realusage of the weapon, you'll want to look elsewhere.
Where I'm from (Victoria, Australia, for context) carrying a weapon like that is an offence on it's own, using it, even for defence will almost defiantly leave you with some pretty serious criminal charges, so that's where I'm coming from when I ask you if you carry them with you.
There are some exceptions, you can carry certain weapons as long as they are covered from view, but obvious enough to see (i.e. in a sports bag or similar) so that you can be stopped and asked to show them at any time. Taking them out or using them though, and you're in some real trouble.
The idea of being able to carry them if you're trained in them also strikes meas odd, but as I'm not even from the same country, I'll leave it at that.
Your example of a fight is rather irrelevant. Not to cause offence, but all that shows is you were in a fight where you had them with you, as you didn't use them it really isn't an example of anything to do with the discussion. I'm glad youdidn't get beaten up and were able to defend yourself, it's just not the topic here.
For the record our system doesn't use sparing in the sense you seem to be implying, ours is more situation drilling, an aggressor, a defender and the clear goal of escaping as soon as possible. That's if we're talking street work, mind, our traditional work is based in kata, which is different from sparing again.
I would still say that that's a long way from reality. First, no groin strikes. That's one of the most valid targets in real combat, so by removing it you're taking away another option you would have otherwise had. That's not to say your sparing should include groin strikes, or it's bad you don't, it just makes it one step more removed from reality.
Your instructors stopping the fight when they feels a strike would end itis fair enough in it's own context, but really doesn't mean that the strike is actually effective. That's not a dig at your teachers, it's just not reasonable to say in a sparing match that 'Yes, that strike would 100% have knocked him out/killed him so therefore it works.', there's too much that might be missed, or misinterpreted.
Honestly, no, it really doesn't show that it 'actually works'. It can be difficult to prove the effectiveness of any archaic weapon in a modern setting. Short of actually going out and attacking people with them (which I'm sure I don't need to say you shouldn't do), there's no definite way to show that something works. Things like sparing are great, but they only show that the method works within the context of sparing, whichis very different to the context of real combat.
For the record, while I appreciate your views on the XMA style movements for building skills, in the end I disagree.
The best way to develop comfort with a weapon, speed, fluidity, etc is to practice using that weapon properly, be it paired kata, solo drills,etc, and just practising over and over again, until it's second nature.
What you're doing may have benefits to your traditional training, but at the end of the day, the biggest thing you'll get out of it is being good at twirling and spinning them, not being good with the weapon AS a weapon. There's only one way to do that, and it's a long and hard road.
If twirling and doing tricks is what you're after, fantastic, keep it up, you're looking good. If it's combative effectiveness and the realusage of the weapon, you'll want to look elsewhere.
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
superior technique, whether it be weaponless or with a weapon, begins with stance. If you don't have good stances, and furthermore, if you don't know how to USE your stances, your technique NEVER be as good as it could be. Stances are even more important with weapons, because you need an even more solid foundation when dealing with the weight and technique of having a tool (the weapon) in your hands.
Bat ma... Bat gung fu
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, now we're getting somewhere.
Sadly, James, I think you'll find that what you have been taught wouldn't really be considered "traditional". From what I've been able to find, Chris Gehring teaches "Protech Weapon Systems", which, according to every reference, was "developed for our Karate Kids" within ATA TKD schools. It utilises soft and light training weapons, and doesn't seem to have any basis in actual traditional methods (Ryukyu Kobudo). The only other weapon sources are XMA curriculums, so that's even further removed.
I think the thing that others and myself are questioning here is that there appears to be no base present. There's no stance, there's no focus (in terms of usage as a weapon), there's no sense of distance, targeting, power, tactics, strategy, or anything that makes these demos even slightly related to martial application. I recognise that it's not meant to show that, but if the basis really is from a traditional base we'd expect to see some aspect remaining. Maybe we'll see it when you get the "traditional" video done.
Ha, I'd be a little careful before trying to guess what we can and can't see... I can see what you're talking about, but there really isn't anything that looks close to martial application, regardless of such aspects.
Sadly, James, I think you'll find that what you have been taught wouldn't really be considered "traditional". From what I've been able to find, Chris Gehring teaches "Protech Weapon Systems", which, according to every reference, was "developed for our Karate Kids" within ATA TKD schools. It utilises soft and light training weapons, and doesn't seem to have any basis in actual traditional methods (Ryukyu Kobudo). The only other weapon sources are XMA curriculums, so that's even further removed.
I think the thing that others and myself are questioning here is that there appears to be no base present. There's no stance, there's no focus (in terms of usage as a weapon), there's no sense of distance, targeting, power, tactics, strategy, or anything that makes these demos even slightly related to martial application. I recognise that it's not meant to show that, but if the basis really is from a traditional base we'd expect to see some aspect remaining. Maybe we'll see it when you get the "traditional" video done.
Ha, I'd be a little careful before trying to guess what we can and can't see... I can see what you're talking about, but there really isn't anything that looks close to martial application, regardless of such aspects.
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On this matter, I do agree that you need to be familiar with the balance of the weapon. In addition to this, symmetrical weapons should also be well-balanced. Otherwise, mechanics can be disrupted. I've seen people trying to learn sai techniques with those "Elektra" type sai, only to find them very frustrated at not even being able to do some of the basic strikes.
However, it's not just the weapon itself, or even what you do with the upper body, but rather, how the lower body essentially drives the upper body. Swinging a weapon with your arms only isn't going to produce that great of an effect, compared to driving the lower body to assist the upper body. This is true of just about any weapons system, otherwise, you have a lot of wasted potential energy, and relatively weak strikes.
Even with "finesse" weapons, such as foils used in fencing, the practitioner's bread and butter attack is going to be the classic lunge, where the legs propel the body forward, as the stabbing motion is made. Without this, I'd imagine that most attacks could easily be parried.
It's all a matter of semantics ...
There is a great deal of difference between traditional weapons practice for "karate" tournaments, and 'traditional karate weapons practice'. This, I believe, is where the disparate opinions in this thread come from. Tournament weapons practice involves slick and fast movements with practice weapons that are often weighted specifically to ease their use in tournament 'kata'. Very rarely does any of the tournament practice actually translate into what is taught, or considered correct in a traditional dojo as legitimate weapons useage. Not saying that this is bad, or that tournament weapons practice isn't very difficult, just that it's different.
I am reminded of a story told to me by a very senior iaido instructor here in Texas. He had recently returned from 10 years in Japan, and heard about a local karate tournament that had a traditional weapons division. Having competed in iaido tournaments in Japan, he thought it would be interesting to try his hand back in the U.S. When his turn came, he got out on the floor and performed a number of kata from the Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu school of sword. I'm sure you can see what they look like by searching for them on YouTUbe. Needless to say he didn't win. However, after the tournament, the judges came up to him and thanked him for performing. They said they had always wanted to see traditional iaido, but had no way to judge him compared to what is expected at the tournaments.
Just my thoughts on it.
There is a great deal of difference between traditional weapons practice for "karate" tournaments, and 'traditional karate weapons practice'. This, I believe, is where the disparate opinions in this thread come from. Tournament weapons practice involves slick and fast movements with practice weapons that are often weighted specifically to ease their use in tournament 'kata'. Very rarely does any of the tournament practice actually translate into what is taught, or considered correct in a traditional dojo as legitimate weapons useage. Not saying that this is bad, or that tournament weapons practice isn't very difficult, just that it's different.
I am reminded of a story told to me by a very senior iaido instructor here in Texas. He had recently returned from 10 years in Japan, and heard about a local karate tournament that had a traditional weapons division. Having competed in iaido tournaments in Japan, he thought it would be interesting to try his hand back in the U.S. When his turn came, he got out on the floor and performed a number of kata from the Muso Jikiden Eishin ryu school of sword. I'm sure you can see what they look like by searching for them on YouTUbe. Needless to say he didn't win. However, after the tournament, the judges came up to him and thanked him for performing. They said they had always wanted to see traditional iaido, but had no way to judge him compared to what is expected at the tournaments.
Just my thoughts on it.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
That alone probably should have been their clue to give him the gold.
