Evaluating Iraq

[Bob Hubbard]

Someones corn flakes had the secret ingredient huh?

Interesting how you can so easily dismiss the barbaric actions of Americans as being in the past and insist on the NOW. Well...right NOW there are individuals being held, without charge, without access to legal council, without access to Red Cross representatives by the US Government in Cuba. Right NOW someone in Iraq is eating dirt after taking a rifle butt to the mouth for not obeying an order from a US soldier. (Didn't matter that he didn't understand english). Right now, there are those Americans who are abusing their power and those under their control. Right NOW Paul. I realize that the events of 10 years ago are almost a lifetime to a culture to whom the microwave takes too long to warm their tea, but its not a long time.

You haven't refuted my points, you have blured them.

You ask what others have done....what have -YOU- done?

You can point at your badge and say "I'm a cop. I save lives. I protect and serve."
So were the guys who beat Rodney King. So was that bastard in Orleans County. So was the NYC cop who shoved the objects in a prisoners rectum.

Don't whine about an internet boards setup...things on here are for recreation sake. Don't like it, don't play. Theres thousands of other boards out there.

I have incredible respect for those in the military, and law enforcement. Theirs is a thankless task, dealing with horrors I hope to personally never encounter. There are heros in there...and there are zeros as well. Which are you? What are -you- doing to fix the problems?

The question is....which problems are you trying to fix?

Racial Profiling is alive and well in WNY. Folks may not be run outta the neighborhoods...but they sure are pulled over alot in certain WNY communities.

As to the comment "RELATIVE to other countries, we aren't doing so bad if you COMPARE our treatment of civilians"...well..that is all a matter of opinion. I'm sure that while the FBI was busy burning them alive, the Branch Davidians didn't think "Thank God its Americans doing this and not those damn Nazis." I'm also pretty certain the retarded inmate wasn't thinking "Glad I'm in NY. Having my penis stepped on and abused like this would hurt so much worse in a 3rd world nation."

You ask what I am doing....I am opening my mouth and spreading the word. I am attempting to present multiple sides of arguments, to help encourage people to think for themselves. I realize that sometimes, I'm way off base...hell, sometimes, I'll argue a side I don't agree on, simply to make others -think-.

-THAT- in my opinion, is what makes the -idea- of America something special...that we can think for ourselves, if only we can find the data we need to do so... That can be our greatest gift to the world that lacks such a wonder.

Its interesting to note that all of us debating and arguing in this thread...we all agree and disagree with each other at certain points. Both Robert Robertson and myself have been both on different sides and the same side and complimentary sides of various debates. You and I Paul...same thing. -Thats my America- Where we can do that, and not yet have to worry about a bullet to the head.

You ask what I am doing.... I'm providing the forum where you can speak your mind, without fear of censorship. (Provided of course you follow the basic rules.) Is that a contradiction? No. Every debate must have rules. You can (and have) taken me to task, forced me to think, to research, to discover. If I have done that to anyone here...made them take 1 moment and reach...then I have made a difference, and -that- is my purpose here.

I can't change the past. I can't in a moment steer the ship of state (which steers like a drunken cow thats eaten alot of lead), but I can create a ripple...and ripples can become waves.

What am I doing? I'm speaking up, and out. My opinions are out there, in public. Not hidden away lest they be heard by the SS. (My 3 cats will purr those cheep suits into a fuzzy shedded oblivion in my defence....I swear I heard them say that...or was it "feed us"...hard to tell...anyone here speak cat?)

So, Paul....what are you going to do to change things? To free the illegally held captives, to stop the attrocities, to right the wrongs? Or do you believe that those sitting captive, without being charged with any crime, without legal representation, without outside contact since 9/12/01 deserve it?

We can pat ourselves on the back and lie, but the truth is, the US isn't -that- much better than so many others in the human rights department.

For the record...I do try to buy American, and support local businesses, and organic foods wherever possible. I tend to do most of my own cooking, and research many of the products I buy. I won't buy a Dell because they shipped much of their support to India for example.

Education...independance....free-thinking....and the ability to scream "Down with Adolph Bush" and not worry (too much) about dissapearing tomorow...or being found dead, on a train trak, with your hands tied behind your back, throat slashed, gun shot to the head, no blood left in your body...and have it ruled a suicide. (Clinton-WhiteWater...look it up...)

Now, we can go ding each other with the rep system, we can argue here, or we can add our voices to what we believe in 'out there' in the real world. Maybe we make a difference, maybe not. Me, I think I make a difference..small as it may be....

Time will tell if I'm right.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

We are 'ranked' in martial arts terms based in our man hours here from white to black.

That a system of reputation points exists for some to gain percieved support or undermining on a numerical scale

That, based on their vestment level, can award/penalize more points than others based on an entire set of criterion that I didn't vote on, but have to accept as the way business is done....

Sounds a little proprietary or token capitalist to me.

I didn't vote on the speed limit, didn't get a say really in how my performance at work was rated, nor the pay-rise if I was a good performing chimp....have no say in what the Gas company is overcharging me to heat my flat, etc.

Funny thing is....I really did get a little bit more say in the rep system here though...and the 'belt ranks'. Rep systems pretty much the 'default' though....belt ranks...that was put to mostly a community effort way back when.

Much different from the karate schools where, maybe I just want a green belt...but I gotta know hitten-mitsugi style 4 first. Bah. I bought a green sash, its mine, it means something to me, problems? Poo. I earned the Blue though.

The board stuff here...I'm always open to suggestions for.

Don't always follow em...but I do listen.

Shame the world doesn't listen more, y'know?

 

[Tgace]

I think that would be a challenge that is difficult to meet. Certainly, the United States does attempt to exercise care for 'collateral damage' when engaged in military operations. But I also think that is wrong.

If 'military operations' are warranted, then the military should target all legitimate targets and destroy them. The military should use the most effective weapon in the arsenal to destroy a target. All military operations should be conducted fast and overpowering. Then end result of any military action should an 'unconditional surrender' of the opposing force, or its complete destruction.

If the military is going to *****-foot around with sacred relics and concern for civilian casualties, then perhaps a military operation is not the correct tool.

One of the rules concerning guns is that you "Never point a weapon at anything unless you plan to destroy it." I think the military should be employed with the same principle.

Mike

I think any of our opponents would say our operations are "fast and overpowering"...at the same time, military operations are "politics by force" and the peace we hope to garner after the conflict may depend on the way we wage the war in the first place.

Another firearms rule is Be sure of your target and beyond. We do our best to fight by that principle too.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Interesting post on a weblog from Iraq.

April 13, 10:50 am EST. Baghdad, Iraq -- Aadhamiyah. After a day cooped up shuttling between hotel and Internet cafe yesterday, I went out again, this time to the Sunni neighborhood of Aadhamiyah. I have yet to write up what I saw in full, but here's the basics.

This is a followup to the Fallujah story. I wrote earlier about the massive relief collections for Fallujah, coordinated through the moseques of Baghdad and beyond, with the mosque of Abu Hanifa in Aadhamiyah as the epicenter. We saw that on April 7, within hours of the beginning of the operation.

Later on, as we saw when we were in Fallujah, there was a massive exodus of refugees from Fallujah, many of whom were taken into people's homes in Aadhamiyah.

The U.S. military has many suspicions that mujaheddin are leaving Fallujah and that guns and fighters are being smuggled in through the relief program for Fallujah. So they paid a visit to the mosque on Sunday.

Built around the tomb of Abu Hanifa, the founder of the moderate Hanafi school of Islamist jurisprudence and one of the most important figures in the history of Sunni Islam, the mosque is 1250 years old. Although Umm al-Marek is bigger, Abu Hanifa is probably the most important Sunni mosque in Baghdad, and a site of pilgrimage for Muslims around the world.

We talked with Issam Rashid, the chief of security for the mosque. He told us the story. At 3:30 am on Sunday morning, 100 American troops raided the mosque. They were looking for weapons and mujaheddin. They started the riad the way they virtually always do -- by smashing in the gates with tanks and then driving Hummer in. The Hummers ran over and destroyed some of the stored relief goods (the bulk of the goods had already been sent to Fallujah -- over 200 tons -- but the amount remaining was considerable). More was destroyed as soldiers ripped apart sacks looking for rifles. Rashid estimated maybe three tons of supplies were destroyed. We saw for ourselves some of the remains, sacks of beans ripped apart and strewn around.

The mosque was full of people, including 90 down from Kirkuk (many with the Red Crescent). They were all pushed down on the floor, with guns put to the backs of their heads. Another person associated with the mosque, Mr. Alber, who speaks very good English, told us that he repeatedly said, "Please, don't break down doors. Please, don't break windows. We can help you. We can have custodians unlock the doors." (Alber, by the way, was imprisoned by Saddam for running a bakery. As he said, "Under the embargo, you could eat flour, you could eat sugar, you could eat eggs, all separately. But mix them together and bake them and you were harming the economy by raising the price of sugar and you could get 15 years in prison.)

The Americans refused to listen to Alber's pleas. We went all around the mosque and the adjacent madrassah, the Imam Aadham Islamic College. We saw dozens of doors broken down, windows broken, ceilings ripped apart, and bullet holes in walls and ceilings. The way the soldiers searched for illicit arms in the ceiling was first to spray the ceiling with gunfire, then break out a panel and go up and search.

They even went and rifled through students' exam papers (in Arabic), messed up offices. An old man who is a "guard" at the mosque (actually a poor man with a large family who is slightly lame and is missing several teeth) was hit in the head with a rifle butt and then kicked when he was down -- all because he was a little slow in answering the door. He says he never carries a weapon -- the whole mosque has only three Kalashnikovs, for security, kept in the imam's room. The Americans took the ammunition there too. And, of course, they entered the mosque with their boots on.

The American commanders will say this was a necessary precaution to make sure no military goods got into Fallujah and that this was legal under the laws of war. But the Abu Hanifa mosque was not involved in this -- they found nothing. They didn't bother to ask. They didn't go to the Imam and see if they could search to mosque. And, after a year of being stationed in Aadhamiyah, they didn't know the people well enough to know there would be nothing -- even though they were told repeatedly that even the resistance in that area never fired from near the mosque because they were afraid of drawing return fire that would hit the mosque.

You can guess how many hearts and minds were won by this little operation -- the third time that the mosque has been raided since the war.

Abu Hanifa mosque has a tower that is being reconstructed. It was destroyed by the American attack during the war. It is only now being finished. Rashid told me why. He said, "After the war, the Americans came and offered money to rebuild the tower. We told them no. We will rebuild the tower with our own money. We will take no money from you. You can't just destroy this and then win our goodwill with money. This is not a game."

When I asked Rashid if we could use his full name, he said, "Why not?" It's a response we get more and more these days, from people who would have been afraid but have lost their fears through anger. Dignity is one of the few things in Iraq that is not in short supply.

Source: http://www.empirenotes.org/


Other Blogs: http://www.zmag.org/weluser.htm

For a different perspective than the one above :
http://www.strategypage.com/fyeo/qndguide/default.asp?target=Iraq

 

[Tgace]

So there is no good or bad. Right or wrong. We must be perfect and faultless before we can take any action and believe its "right". A bomb dropped on the wrong target puts us on the same level as a suicide bomber...An illegal massacre in Vietnam (for which there was an investigation and court martial) is the same as state sponsored progrom...Our nation was discovered by a "fortune hunter" that brought disease and genocide to innocent native cultures and is just a litany of slavery, unjust wars and atrocities to our modern times. I vote we just give our country to Canada and start over again...

How do you "respect" soldiers and LEO's in a world like this?? Arent they just agents of all this @#$% you see as wrong and evil in our society??

Excuse me while I go outside and torch myself out of guilt...

 

[Tgace]

At least I guess I can be proud I live in a country that looks at incidents like Kent State, Mi Lai (SP?) and other instances of wrongdoing and see them (even if through the lens of history) as wrong, conducts investigations and attempts to prevent them in the future. Unlike the Chinese Gvt. that sees things like that as normal and will have no qualms about doing them again....


Anybody have a match???

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You are right.... we do look at those events and see them as wrong.

But they continue to happen.

If the deciding factor of 'worthyness' is knowing right from wrong...what is it if you do know it, but do the opposite anyway?


I respect the LEOs and Soldiers because I know that the majority of them are good, honorable individuals. The hearts of those who participate in things like the massacres are not the same hearts as those who willingly jumped to their deaths to protect their comrades.

You point at the Chinese....what about the Israeli?
Right now their leader is being applauded by W, despite having a record as vile as Saddam. Towns raized, populations slaughtered to the last, the Red Cross denied access, etc.

What about the years of support and help we gave to Sadamn while looking the other way at his barbaric actions?

Maybe if the US would support governments that actually had similar standards to those we ourselves profess to, we wouldn't be watching our international reputaion suffer so.

But, what worry is a tarnished rep, when you can toss 11 main battlegroups at a problem..when your greatest threat can field none?


Heres your match.

 

[wisdomstrikes]

You point at the Chinese....what about the Israeli?
Right now their leader is being applauded by W, despite having a record as vile as Saddam. Towns raized, populations slaughtered to the last, the Red Cross denied access, etc. QUOTE]

How can you compare Sadam to Israel's Leadership? Get educated before you make remarks like that!!!!!

 

[Tgace]

Sorry...guess I cant be proud of anything. Oh the "majority" of soldiers and LEO's are good...explains all the examples of the good they do Ive seen here. How can you separate governmental agents from the government they work for??

 

[Tgace]

You point at the Chinese....what about the Israeli?
Right now their leader is being applauded by W, despite having a record as vile as Saddam. Towns raized, populations slaughtered to the last, the Red Cross denied access, etc. QUOTE]

How can you compare Sadam to Israel's Leadership? Get educated before you make remarks like that!!!!!

What...you disagree??? You just havent realized how evil you and your country are yet..(assuming youre American and not Isralei). Here throw some of my gasoline on yourself and join me...

 

[loki09789]

I didn't vote on the speed limit, didn't get a say really in how my performance at work was rated, nor the pay-rise if I was a good performing chimp....have no say in what the Gas company is overcharging me to heat my flat, etc.

Funny thing is....I really did get a little bit more say in the rep system here though...and the 'belt ranks'. Rep systems pretty much the 'default' though....belt ranks...that was put to mostly a community effort way back when.


The board stuff here...I'm always open to suggestions for.

Don't always follow em...but I do listen.

Shame the world doesn't listen more, y'know?

So, if you decided to run the rep. program - which you didn't have to do - and you are tweeking it the way you say, yet cry the lack of fair and equal in the world, why is increased rep. connected to increased influence?

Fair and equal would be that each member would have equal point value of influence regardless of time. We should all be the same as 'citizen/members' of this forum. Membership time, volume of posting or status as moderator/administrator/advisor should have no bearing on our 'influence' of another poster's rep points - if it is just an expression of agreement or disagreement of another poster's opinion. Rep. point influence should be a separate thing from membership 'seniority' or moderator/administrator/advisor status - since it is an expression of just another member's opinion. As it is now, those with more 'influence' can really pound others based solely on an opinion.

Glad that those 'new immigrants' during the industrial revolution didn't have this type of 'membership' system that gave them less voting clout than 'old immigrant' voters. It is bad enough that voting corruption happens at all.

This does not mean that I don't think that said 'influence' shouldn't be exercised by those admin/moderators/advisors acting within the role of overwatch to warn or take punitive action on posters who are violating forum rules.


Or

If fair and equal is your banner, there shouldn't even be a seniority system or rep system.

Still find it interesting....perfect chance to demonstrate fair and equal from a position of power but....

 

[loki09789]

What am I doing?
I think I made that clear in the New Jersey School thread:

"I am a teacher, and I agree there are some stupid policies and practices that are being implemented, but REMEMBER that the teachers are not the implimentors, Administrators and Superintendents/School Boards (some of which have NEVER taught or don't have very much time in the trenches before they go for higher degrees and higher paying jobs) are the policy writers and final decision makers.

TEACHERS are the people trying to help your children learn the critical thinking and subject skills as well as acceptable social behavior so they can be productive, positively impacting citizens as well as NON-Judgemental and prejudicial about things they don't know a lot about.... like bashing teachers/education/military/religion/LEO/Race when you are not directly involved, knowledgeable on the subject."

And that was in response to statements like this:

"I'd make the teachers use the same system.

Oh wait....this is the same group that said test scores were meaningless (after a group of them failed the same tests given to their students.....)

Morons.

Common sence has left the building and they wonder why so many kids are going postal nowadays. Hell, if I was in school today they would have executed me on principal. (I used to read war books, knew how to make gunpowder by 6th grade, etc.)"

by you.

On top of that, I have served 13 years of military service, already laid out in other threads, and train/have trained critical thinking/tactical self defense approach in a character/team building approach.

Basically, that is philosophical justification of 'what I do' but concretely, I vote for the guy I think is best for the job and try not to make commentary about those appointed leaders that are critical without reform in mind....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You point at the Chinese....what about the Israeli?
Right now their leader is being applauded by W, despite having a record as vile as Saddam. Towns raized, populations slaughtered to the last, the Red Cross denied access, etc.

How can you compare Sadam to Israel's Leadership? Get educated before you make remarks like that!!!!!

Israeli issues:
http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-1/480/480_07_PalestinianLives.shtml

What the U.S. media ignored is that since the last Palestinian suicide bombing in Haifa on October 4, Israeli forces have carried out dozens of raids and attacks. These assaults have killed 117 Palestinians, injured hundreds more and destroyed enough houses to leave thousands of Palestinians without shelter, according to a tally by Palestinian commentator Ali Abunimah.

But for the U.S. corporate media--its horizons defined by loyalty to the U.S. agenda in the Middle East--a period of intense Israeli violence still counts as a "lull" in the conflict. In fact, just two days before the suicide bombing, more than 40 Israeli military vehicles--supported by Apache helicopters--staged an assault on the densely populated Rafah refugee camp in southern Gaza.

Media Blackout Over Israeli Atrocities in Nablus
Monday, 5 January 2004, 12:19 pm
Press Release: Palestine Media Center - PMC
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0401/S00014.htm

Palestinian witnesses said Amjad Bilal Al-Masri, 15, was shot in the chest by an IOF sniper as he threw stones at an Israeli armored vehicle from a rooftop in the Old City of Nablus.

Al-Masri and Rawhi Shuman - a 19-year-old shot in the chest in a separate incident - died of their injuries in the city’s Rafidya hospital, medics said. Amer Arafat, 25, was shot in the back and pronounced dead upon his arrival to hospital. During the funeral of the three, IOF shot and wounded another teenager, 17-year-old Mohammed el-Masri. Hospital officials later pronounced him dead. Witnesses said he was helping to carry the coffin of his cousin Amjad el-Masri when he was shot.

Press Release from the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS)
Oct 18 2000
Emergency Medical Services (EMS) of the Red Crescent

To-date 24 of our ambulances have been hit by live ammunition by Israelis in 42 separate attacks. 27 Emergency Medical Technicians have been injured, and one killed. PRCS has logged 47 incidents of denial of access to ambulances at roadblocks. EMS continues to utilize vehicles now in desperate need of repair due to lack of replacements and personnel. The 8 ambulances received from the Norwegian Red Cross are already working in the field.

Total Attacks on Ambulances by Israelis: 42

Total Ambulances Damaged (some vehicles attacked more than once): 24

Total EMT Personnel Injured: 27

EMT Killed: 1

Violations & Restrictions of Ambulance Access: 47

from: http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine31.html

Rumors tell of dozens of Palestinian prisoners arbitrarily executed by the Israeli forces. Israeli army spokespersons allege that only gunmen have been killed in gun battles. But medics of the International Red Cross and United Nations officials have proven that the weapons of the executed Palestinians showed no signs of being fired.

From : http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/401/1/42/

One of the most notorious and controversial events of current conflict between Israel and the Palestinians was the April, 2002 Israeli invasion of Jenin Refugee Camp. For weeks, the Israeli army assaulted the camp with helicopters, tanks, bulldozers, and troops. Almost immediately, reports began to trickle out of Jenin about massive human rights violations occurring in the camp.

http://www.jenininquiry.org/


So...you were saying?

I know....they didn't drop folks into mulching machines while they were alive, and such.. so you're right, they aren't quite the same.

Terroism, barbarism, etc takes many forms. Here are a few.

Now, before someone starts screaming the 'anti-semitic' crap....(and I know someone will), I'm not. I look at the actions of a nation, not a religion here. I can easily fill a couple of hard drives with the crap done to Israel by arabsm nazis and others as well. This is to simply say "I have compared, and there it is. Go refute it if you can. I hope you can do so."

That is of course my point in many of these things.... "Here is what I found...please prove me otherwise."

 

[Makalakumu]

Basically, that is philosophical justification of 'what I do' but concretely, I vote for the guy I think is best for the job and try not to make commentary about those appointed leaders that are critical without reform in mind....

How can you even broach the subject of reform when someone disgrees as to whether there is a NEED to reform?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Sorry Paul,

While I agree with certain concepts expressed by "Comrade Lenin", I think the world has proven them not realistic in a large enviroment. Communism just doesn't scale well. :rofl:

Again, how the rep system here connects to the evil that men do, and how to disentangle the US from the mess that is Iraq I just seem to miss, y'know? But! to clear up a misconception... admins have a set 'influence' level. Due to our having some of the highest post counts, it was decided that to be fair, we would be 'locked'. Also, when it was started, -everyone- started at zero. That means I started out the same as everyone else. I don't use it myself as 'punishments', those based on the comments I've gotten, some feel I have. Oh well.

I asked what you (meaning paul here) have done knowing it was mentioned earlier, however he asked us (meaning those involved in debate) what we have done, so it was only fair to have him repeat his own actions (which I do applaud BTW)

Since we've gone miles past the original topic here (partially my fault I admit), where does all this end? Some of us see the wrongs, some don't and some of what we see we disagree on if it is in fact wrong, and to what extent in relation to other issues.

So, where to from here?

 

[Tgace]

I guess we all agree that America Sucks and go on from there...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Sorry...guess I cant be proud of anything. Oh the "majority" of soldiers and LEO's are good...explains all the examples of the good they do Ive seen here. How can you separate governmental agents from the government they work for??

There is plenty to be proud of.

America is often first to offer aid to other nations, even those we are at odds against. Recent aid to Iran in the aftermath of an major eathquake is just 1 small example.

America offers unlimited opportunity to everyone. Where else in the world can a bankrupt, penniless, uneducated individual rise to be a captain of industry?

America has been a shining light of opportunity in the past, to those seeking freedom, opportunity and a chance to shine.


I argue about the darkness, in the hope that light will shine through.

Perhaps...rather than being sarcastic and snippy, you could share the light you yourself see?

Or, should I pass you a few more containers of $3/gallon gas so that you too can become a shining flaming beacon? :rofl: (made more funny if he's eaten at TacoBell.....)

 

[wisdomstrikes]

I feel any nation that is under constant attack, has the right to defend its self by any means necessary. Israel attacks for one reason, to prevent Israeli casualties. The bottom line is, Palestine wants Israel to stop existing. Jews are a democratic people trying to coexist with a nation that has no regard for human life. Israel is a country that has had to fight its entire existent in order not to be wiped off this planet. Israel does not send its children into the streets with the intent to blow themselves up to kill others. Israel's only defense is to react first, and if it means killing those willing to kill them then so be it.
As a government employee I know first hand what takes place there. And I know that if Israel does not take these measures they will annihilated.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Israeli issues:

Now, before someone starts screaming the 'anti-semitic' crap....(and I know someone will), I'm not. I look at the actions of a nation, not a religion here. I can easily fill a couple of hard drives with the crap done to Israel by arabsm nazis and others as well. This is to simply say "I have compared, and there it is. Go refute it if you can. I hope you can do so."

That is of course my point in many of these things.... "Here is what I found...please prove me otherwise."

I think you hit the nail on the head right here. I can't understand why The US can't at least give the appearence of being a neutral party to all the hoopla. While I think that islamic fundamentalism may end up being the death of us all, the US has to at least look like it isn't subject to the whims of Israel. If terrorism were truly what we have taken a stand against, then Israel would be right at the top of our list for invasion. Its not right that we treat Israel with kid gloves and smash those that don't like it. Elohim does not represent the trinity, why do we suddenly become Old testament Jews when dealing with the islamic world?
Sean

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I feel any nation that is under constant attack, has the right to defend its self by any means necessary. Israel attacks for one reason, to prevent Israeli casualties. The bottom line is, Palestine wants Israel to stop existing. Jews are a democratic people trying to coexist with a nation that has no regard for human life. Israel is a country that has had to fight its entire existent in order not to be wiped off this planet. Israel does not send its children into the streets with the intent to blow themselves up to kill others. Israel's only defense is to react first, and if it means killing those willing to kill them then so be it.
As a government employee I know first hand what takes place there. And I know that if Israel does not take these measures they will annihilated.

So, you are saying that Israel can do anything they want, machine gun unarmed women and children, bulldoze unarmed protestors, and such and..its all ok?

I do not deny the fact that they have faced some seriously stacked odds, but come on...there -has- to be a limit. Maybe they should just gather up all the Palestinians, put em in camps and warm up the ovens? Or...is -that- too far?

Remember..you said -any means necessary-. One of the most hated regimes in world history felt the same way....and they slaughtered over 12 Million innocents.

I'm sorry...but, that isn't right.

Israel has one damn fine military...some tactical miracle workers in there. Certainly a few children throwing rocks isn't a threat to armed trained soldiers with machine guns.