Evaluating Iraq

[loki09789]

Sorry Paul,

While I agree with certain concepts expressed by "Comrade Lenin", I think the world has proven them not realistic in a large enviroment. Communism just doesn't scale well. :rofl:

Again, how the rep system here connects to the evil that men do, and how to disentangle the US from the mess that is Iraq I just seem to miss, y'know? But! to clear up a misconception... admins have a set 'influence' level. Due to our having some of the highest post counts, it was decided that to be fair, we would be 'locked'. Also, when it was started, -everyone- started at zero. That means I started out the same as everyone else. I don't use it myself as 'punishments', those based on the comments I've gotten, some feel I have. Oh well.

I asked what you (meaning paul here) have done knowing it was mentioned earlier, however he asked us (meaning those involved in debate) what we have done, so it was only fair to have him repeat his own actions (which I do applaud BTW)

Since we've gone miles past the original topic here (partially my fault I admit), where does all this end? Some of us see the wrongs, some don't and some of what we see we disagree on if it is in fact wrong, and to what extent in relation to other issues.

So, where to from here?

Each member having an equal 'vote' regardless of 'status' or 'rank' doesn't sound 'communisitic to me. Sounds the same as the evolution from caste society and aristocracies to democracy to me.

My point is this, again, if you are screaming the fair and equal arguement, the evil that men do, and any other 'pointing out of the dark' stuff - yet employ a system of inequitable 'value' of the members in voting power on issues/opinion you are using a skewed scale - actively.

So, even in your opportunity to create Bobby Land, you are creating a token reward system were the token haves can throw more influence and token power over the token have nots..... comments like 'oh well' in response to questioning/criticism don't seem too 'open' and are almost "Bushish" in tone

How does it relate? Scale, analogy: "Let he who is free of sin cast the first stone..." (For those who want to argue religion versus morallity, read it philosophically as opposed to theologically).

BTW: Listing "Goals" and calling it action plans or steps toward reform is like telling a child to 'work harder' when they aren't getting good grades. How should the work be 'harder', or what should be done better.

As far as the 'what do you do about it' questioning, I am not the ones crying in and about the darkness yet not making any statements about proposed reform. Or mentioning any hope or faith in anything.

Self fulfilled prophecy seems to be working overtime here: If you think the world/USA is going to hell in a hand basket, it is and you can be part of the problem. If you think that there is some redeemable qualities/values/people worth fighting for, there are and you can be part of the positive changes. One of the most common character traits of success - from sports, military, personal tragedy/crisis and other challenges - is an indominable spirit: doesn't than mean that you have to see the good, not blindly, but still see it?

Long and short of it, Iraq will be occupied (USA, UN, Coalition...) for a while. Leaving is not a viable option. We are committed, like it or don't, and unless "WE" as a nation are willing to finish this to a successful completion, it will fail and "WE" will look bad and Mid East bitterness will grow even more. "WE" will suffer even more terrorist hatred and attack domestic and abroad....

Don't like the way we got here. DON'T like the lack of timing and effective intelligence for decision making, or honest presentation but we are committed now. But, in MOUT training, even if it is a bad choice you follow the leader through the door. You back up his play as a demonstration of loyalty and you don't criticise until it is over because an ununified front creates friction and gets MORE PEOPLE KILLED THAN WILL HAPPEN ALREADY.

Right now, believe you me, I am shaking my head as I am following this nation through the door of Iraq, but for the sake of the troops on the ground and the presentation of the USA 'family' to the world, I am going to reserve my heavy critiques until the dust settles some.

 

[Tgace]

If the point man goes in the door and draws fire and the #2 man stops in the door...the rest of the team gets "dog piled" in the "fatal funnel" and you could all wind up dead......if youre "in" you better be in all the way...anything less is suicide.

 

[Tgace]

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The "Oh well" is because no matter what I do, say, or attempt, some will damn me regardless. As to the 'scoring'...its interesting to note that while the admins are locked at a certain limit, all other members have full freedom of growth. Why should a casual visitor pop in and make major waves? Let them join the community, and share.

I also realize the 'shortcomings' of my suggestions, etc. The cruz of it is, I can see a problem. I can see a possible goal in the solving of said problem. I do however lack the information needed to formulat a more coheasive solution to offer.

Its sorta (but not exactly) like talking to someone who says "I gotta go visit Aunt Frida." You say, "Call AAA, ask for a map.". You've given them direction that may help them solve their problem, but not necessarily the solution itself.

I can say "Surround the city, and go house to house.". Without knowing the important information (friendlys available for action, lay of the land, history of that zone, equipment available, postential hostiles, etc) its hard to be more specific.

Here is a 'thought'. It is open for analysis, refinement, expansion and testing.

Can the darkness be fought? Yup. Easy? Nope.

Alot of what you wrote, I agree with, to varying degrees. Some I don't.
I point out the dark. You have a few options.
Point out the light, or take me to task for focusing on the dark.
The later won't remove the dark.

If you don't see the problem, then thats ok.
If you see it, but remain silent, that is.
To not act is still an action.
or, as the song goes "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. "

I decide to speak out, and regardless of who it annoys, point out what I see as problems. Where I can, I offer suggestions on what to do to solve them...other times, I point them out to simply say "Heres a problem,...whatta we do about it?" counting on other more experienced folks to offer up ideas.

I don't have an answer to the "what do we do about Iraq" question..just my own thoughts, ideas and wishes on possible ideas, that need more data before being considered 'solutions'.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

"It is not the critic who counts, not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled or how the doer of deeds might have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred with sweat and dust and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, if he wins, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

Or put another way..."No one ever built a statue to the critic".

:asian:

 

[michaeledward]

Long and short of it, Iraq will be occupied (USA, UN, Coalition...) for a while. Leaving is not a viable option. We are committed, like it or don't, and unless "WE" as a nation are willing to finish this to a successful completion, it will fail and "WE" will look bad and Mid East bitterness will grow even more. "WE" will suffer even more terrorist hatred and attack domestic and abroad....

Don't like the way we got here. DON'T like the lack of timing and effective intelligence for decision making, or honest presentation but we are committed now. But, in MOUT training, even if it is a bad choice you follow the leader through the door. You back up his play as a demonstration of loyalty and you don't criticise until it is over because an ununified front creates friction and gets MORE PEOPLE KILLED THAN WILL HAPPEN ALREADY.

Right now, believe you me, I am shaking my head as I am following this nation through the door of Iraq, but for the sake of the troops on the ground and the presentation of the USA 'family' to the world, I am going to reserve my heavy critiques until the dust settles some.

I believe this choice is truly unamerican.

I want the fighting soldiers to have the best equipment, best training and best leaders on the ground. I want to ensure that they are fairly compensated and the our country's promises to them are fulfilled. I want their families to be properly cared for while the soldiers are away.

I don't want to offer silly platitudes about 'supporting our troops' ... because I am not sure what that means. I do want my government to tax me so that our soldiers are able to meet all threats. I want my government to tax me to support the 'G.I. Bill', in all its forms (my father is still able to take higher education classes at little or no cost from his service in Korea). I want my government to tax me to support the Veterans Adminstration (hopefully more efficiently) which does such wonderful things for those who have served, and continues to do wonderful things, including buying wounded soldiers the best prostetics available - I believe the current artificial limbs cost upwards of $100,000.00.

But the United States military is an organization founded on the principle of defend my rights as a citizen of the country. One of those rights is to criticize my government. To not offer criticism, in times when it is called for, is to behave in an unpatriotic manner, and I believe does not honor the service of those in the military.

Two quick examples.
1) - I believe the civilian leadership of the US Military has done a disservice by not using available historical information and intelligence to plan for the proper troop strength in post-Saddam Iraq to guarantee stability. Secretary of War Rumsfeld launched this campaign short of appropriate feet on the ground to prove a point; that a small, nimble, military is the fighting force of the future. This has put American soldiers lives at risk.
2) - I believe the civilian leadership of the US Military has done a disservice by planning its operations to rely so heavily on the Reserve and National Guard units. Many of those in the Reserve and Guard that have been called up, and are serving honorably are suffering (finacially, family separation). Many of those families are calling for additional compensation to make up for what they have lost while serving. I am against this change. Those who have signed up for the Guard and Reserve did so with what should have been full knowledge of what type or service may be required. I don't think we should change the rules mid-stream. I do think, however, that in order to keep our volunteer forces at requested troop strength (per the Quadrennial Review) we are going to have to start paying our incoming soldiers more money, we are going to have to start paying those soldiers that 're-up' better when they do, we are going to have to further reward the new Reserve and Guard troops to go along with our heightened expectations of their responsibilities.

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

Hmmm let me think about this one for a moment.

Sadam was a partner at one time.

Stalin was a partner at one time.

Nope Hitler was not.

2 out of 3 wow.

Are we our own worse enemy?

The PI, Iran, Iraq, Soviet Union, South America (* Multiple countries *)

:idunno:

Hitler was financed by members of the Bush clan. Auschwitz was a subsidary of a steel company that was run by Prescott Bush.

 

[loki09789]

Why should a casual visitor pop in and make major waves? Let them join the community, and share.

I also realize the 'shortcomings' of my suggestions, etc. The cruz of it is, I can see a problem. I can see a possible goal in the solving of said problem. I do however lack the information needed to formulat a more coheasive solution to offer.

I decide to speak out, and regardless of who it annoys, point out what I see as problems. Where I can, I offer suggestions on what to do to solve them...other times, I point them out to simply say "Heres a problem,...whatta we do about it?" counting on other more experienced folks to offer up ideas.

I don't have an answer to the "what do we do about Iraq" question..just my own thoughts, ideas and wishes on possible ideas, that need more data before being considered 'solutions'.

And, along those same lines of logic, why shouldn't those who invest more time in the reform and service of their country have more clout than those who simply comment. Truth is they don't. Why don't 20 year servicemen/women get 2/3 votes when the guy who only grew up and went to school and paid taxes only gets one? Because it could lead to a 'good old boy' system of corruption. It already happens on a networking level when groups unit against others. So, if even the 'casual member' of our country who doesn't even vote has an opportunity for equal representation, shouldn't the casual member here have the same treatment? Fair and equal in opportunity, but not judged based on their investment. Joining the community is simply subscribing. After that it is up to the individual. Sounds EOE/democratic more than communist to me. As is, the system is competitive and hierarchal. Not a living example of fair and equal.

Those who sit in the dark and complain about it usually don't really accomplish much, so I might propose that those who see it as their job to point out the darkness aren't really productive either. What did your mother say when you would complain about how the food was 'icky', and yeah it might have been 'icky', but the frustrated response after repeated complaining usually (at least in my house ) was something along the lines of "fine, you cook next time" - but if I didn't know enough to do it, or wasn't willing to do it, I was subject to the menu she choose.

Taking you to task for it, yup: it is proven through time to be unproductive -especially when comments like "I don't know enough to offer possible reforms/solutions" but you seem to know enough to be critical of everything under the sun.

There are those who are steering this 'ship of state' and we are suppose to be running the sails, keeping the decks clean and taking care of other various needs. Mutiny by those who 'don't know enough to offer solutions' leads to even worse problems. I don't think there is a job description for "sitting in the corner and pointing out how they aren't doing it good enough." I do think there are opportunities to make a difference in places other than these "recreational actitivities."

See the darkness, point it out, but (and I don't think anyone here knows enough about any of the issues that we discuss to make the perfect or 'right' decision/solution/reform and even if I don't agree with the ideology or the answers, I do respect the courage to step up and act) bring some kind of match with that candle, don't just sit there and say "this candle would make it brighter in here.....I thought you would bring the matches."

The act of not acting is a conscious choice, it is called non participation - but the consequences of that usually is that you leave yourself subject to someone elses decision - by choice. Where does that leave any right, room or validity to criticism?

 

[loki09789]

I believe this choice is truly unamerican.

I want the fighting soldiers to have the best equipment, best training and best leaders on the ground. I want to ensure that they are fairly compensated and the our country's promises to them are fulfilled. I want their families to be properly cared for while the soldiers are away.

I don't want to offer silly platitudes about 'supporting our troops' ... because I am not sure what that means.

But the United States military is an organization founded on the principle of defend my rights as a citizen of the country. One of those rights is to criticize my government. To not offer criticism, in times when it is called for, is to behave in an unpatriotic manner, and I believe does not honor the service of those in the military.

Two quick examples.
1) - I believe the civilian leadership of the US Military has done a disservice by not using available historical information and intelligence to plan for the proper troop strength in post-Saddam Iraq to guarantee stability. Secretary of War Rumsfeld launched this campaign short of appropriate feet on the ground to prove a point; that a small, nimble, military is the fighting force of the future. This has put American soldiers lives at risk.
2) - I believe the civilian leadership of the US Military has done a disservice by planning its operations to rely so heavily on the Reserve and National Guard units. Many of those in the Reserve and Guard that have been called up, and are serving honorably are suffering (finacially, family separation). Many of those families are calling for additional compensation to make up for what they have lost while serving. I am against this change. Those who have signed up for the Guard and Reserve did so with what should have been full knowledge of what type or service may be required. I don't think we should change the rules mid-stream. I do think, however, that in order to keep our volunteer forces at requested troop strength (per the Quadrennial Review) we are going to have to start paying our incoming soldiers more money, we are going to have to start paying those soldiers that 're-up' better when they do, we are going to have to further reward the new Reserve and Guard troops to go along with our heightened expectations of their responsibilities.

Mike

Yeah, I was 'unAmerican' because I choose to temper the timing and tone and content of my comments, when I voted, when I held my tongue about political rhetoric concerning Bosnia while we were activated and operating in country so that my troops wouldn't think that their leadership wasn't commited to the small and larger missions they were asked to risk their lives for. I was unAmerican when I exercised my freedom of choice to let my contract end and not re-enlist so that I could provide my son with a stable household (believe me there are those in my old unit who think it was a dishonorable, cowardice act) instead of being deployed again and again when I am basically a single parent right now (getting married again, but his biological mother lives in Az.). I didn't say "don't attempt/offer/support effective change", I did say that complaining to vent and point out the negative stuff for no purpose is demoralizing to those who are reading these comments while they are risking their lives.

If this nation is one body at war, right or wrong, acting with single minded commitment swiftly and effectively is the same as when you are fighting as one body and don't clutter your martial applications with doubts. How effective is your fight if you keep telling yourself all the negative things while you are doing it? Critique in martial arts/military applications and training happens when it is done. The work is hard enough, why make it harder by creating doubt in the troop on the ground. I have heard with my own ears individual soldiers who start out with noble intentions say "why bother" because of something/someone blasting the very cause they are participating in. Assessment, changing the allocation of resources, offerng alternatives, raisng issues that seem to be neglected is VERY different than just screaming into the chorus of already screaming voices - gets nothing done.

Basically, at its simpilist application, NOT supporting the troops means you have done something that will mean that he/she is sitting, stuck in a foreign country away from family and friends, stinking and tired from working way harder or dealing with stresses way more than he/she ever thought possible and opening a copy of USA TODAY and reading some of the 'criticisms' of the very cause that he/she are actively serving to accomplish while it is happening, before the goals are clearly accomplished. It is creating self fulfilled prophecies by making judgements before the end goal is reached because no matter what does happen at the end (and because it is already disillusioning, disheartening enough while on the ground without us feeding more stuff to that fire) perception of the results/goals/cause will be made to fit 'prophetic' expectations.

If we don't finish this right, comment like crazy. If we don't pull out when goals OBVIOUSLY are reached, I will be screaming next to everyone else. Comment on issues of budget and such for social/political reform, but I will not be guilty of saying something or knowingly support someone/an issue that will get back to the troops and cut morale off at the knees. It is hard enough without adding that on top of everything else.

 

[michaeledward]

Yeah, I was 'unAmerican' because I choose to temper the timing and tone and content of my comments, when I voted, when I held my tongue about political rhetoric concerning Bosnia while we were activated and operating in country so that my troops wouldn't think that their leadership wasn't commited to the small and larger missions they were asked to risk their lives for. I was unAmerican when I exercised my freedom of choice to let my contract end and not re-enlist so that I could provide my son with a stable household (believe me there are those in my old unit who think it was a dishonorable, cowardice act) instead of being deployed again and again when I am basically a single parent right now (getting married again, but his biological mother lives in Az.). I didn't say "don't attempt/offer/support effective change", I did say that complaining to vent and point out the negative stuff for no purpose is demoralizing to those who are reading these comments while they are risking their lives.

I hate to bring the discussion to a 'bumper sticker' level, but what were you fighting for while in the service, if not for 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way'.

What then is the 'American Way'?

I thought it was Freedom of Speech, Consent of the Governed, Freedom of Assembly.

And why are my comments reduced to 'Vent' or 'Point out the Negative Stuff' ... what must I say to raise my comments to a level that you deem appropriate?

Mike

 

[loki09789]

I hate to bring the discussion to a 'bumper sticker' level, but what were you fighting for while in the service, if not for 'Truth, Justice, and the American Way'.

What then is the 'American Way'?

I thought it was Freedom of Speech, Consent of the Governed, Freedom of Assembly.

And why are my comments reduced to 'Vent' or 'Point out the Negative Stuff' ... what must I say to raise my comments to a level that you deem appropriate?

Mike

Well, using the old intro from the Black and White SuperMan serials isn't going to raise the level any - just joking . Interesting side bar on that comment though, that last line about the American Way was added later, I believe trying to profit on some of the cold war, anti communist rhetoric of the time. Prior to that, SuperMan was not a copyright trademark of American values as much as a Comic contruct of the Old testament/Judeo Ubermench.

My point is that I will and do make critical comments but, like when my son is playing hockey and having a sucky game, I am not going to shout at him from the benches about what he is doing wrong. I will say things about staying strong and being motivated and staying positive..... Afterwards, we can talk out the critiques and such. Exercising your constitutional freedoms, and this is not directed specifically at you MWard, without reasonable consideration of the time, place and consequences in the short and long term is UnAmerican as far as I am concerned.

Things like the women demonstrating during WWI for voting rights and being called treasonous is ridiculous. They were not 'complaining' they were pushing for reform. Commenting on the adminstrations decisions and budgetary decisions is not treasonous or 'complaining.' Comments that call the cause for which troops are risking their lives, in honor of their voluntary oath sometimes in spite of their personal convictions, immoral link the soldier to the immoral comment. This can make the troops question the support/respect for their sacrifices from the homefront. The way we got there is questionable, but the ideals/goals are not to those doing the job. History channel just got done interviewing troops who are very proud of trying to bring peace and stability to Iraq and Afg.

The standing joke in the service was that we swore an oath to uphold the constitution, but there wasn't any law against being lazy, ignorant or stupid....otherwise we might all be arrested/charged at some point in our lives.

 

[Makalakumu]

If this nation is one body at war, right or wrong, acting with single minded commitment swiftly and effectively is the same as when you are fighting as one body and don't clutter your martial applications with doubts. How effective is your fight if you keep telling yourself all the negative things while you are doing it? Critique in martial arts/military applications and training happens when it is done. The work is hard enough, why make it harder by creating doubt in the troop on the ground. I have heard with my own ears individual soldiers who start out with noble intentions say "why bother" because of something/someone blasting the very cause they are participating in. Assessment, changing the allocation of resources, offerng alternatives, raisng issues that seem to be neglected is VERY different than just screaming into the chorus of already screaming voices - gets nothing done.

No.

If you disagree with this war it is your duty to express that as a citizen. The dissent is not a focus group to be ignored. It is millions upon millions of people. From this rhetoric, it seems as if you want to silence all of those voice to get the job done - am I right?

Look right now the situation is as Hermann Goehring stated, "If some of the citizens do not want war, you drag them to it kicking and screaming."

Well I'm still kicking and I'm still screaming and I'm still out in the streets voicing my opinion and supporting the candidates that express my opinion.

 

[loki09789]

No.

If you disagree with this war it is your duty to express that as a citizen. The dissent is not a focus group to be ignored. It is millions upon millions of people. From this rhetoric, it seems as if you want to silence all of those voice to get the job done - am I right?

Look right now the situation is as Hermann Goehring stated, "If some of the citizens do not want war, you drag them to it kicking and screaming."

Well I'm still kicking and I'm still screaming and I'm still out in the streets voicing my opinion and supporting the candidates that express my opinion.

I don't want to silence anyone, don't want to exercise more authority than I have. Just talking from my POV, now have I gone from being a member of the Right to a Facist/Nazi/Opressor? I don't see our SS, or FBI knocking on any of our doors for comments either so it seems that you are not being severely imposed upon.

There is and ever will be a dip in support, even in a 'just' war, when the body count rises and when the goals aren't accomplished right away. Bob Hubbard said it best about our instant gratification culture. This is going to take a while to accomplish.

What do you think is the best tact now for our nation? Pull out? Stay? If we stay, we need commitment. Kick and scream all you want. I just choose a different approach.

 

[Tgace]

Almost everybody says "were in it now...lets finish it right and get out." Unless you all are saying "get out now and leave Iraq to chaos".

If its the first...support the mission and the troops trying to accomplish it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Paul,
It is my -right- as an American to speak out and bring notice to those wrongs which I see.

It is my -duty- as an American to do so.

It is my -Privilige- as well.

To see the evil, and say nothing is to become part of it.

If you saw a cop raping a woman, or beating a man, or stealing from the old, but you were unable to act, would you remain silient?
If you knew of corruption, but were unable to change it directly, would you hold your voice?

You may dismiss my own efforts and the efforts of -thousands- of others by saying "you guys do nothing but complain.". It won't change the fact that someone has to have the testicular fortitude to speak up, for those who can not. Eventually, enough people speaking out, will get the attention of those who -can- make a change. When critical mass is achieved, change occurs.

You read the hundreds of reports of atrocities, abuses of power, etc. Everything from the masacres in 'Nam, to the certain police forces racial profiling of black drivers. Someone must speak up for those who can't, or won't.

Why were many of our ground troops sent to Iraq -without- protective armour? So bad was the worry, that familiys were buying it themselves so that their loved ones would be safe. Why didn't the military take care of its own here?

You may call those of us who speak out 'unamerican'....but it is those who complacently sit at home and wait for the score who are in fact UnAmerican.

It is my -right- and -duty- to take the President and Congress to task over the paths they lead us. They are supposed to be looking out for our collective best interests, not lining their small circle of supporters pockets at the expense of our brightest youth.

As to the military..I do support them. Military family n all that y'know. However, I do not want to read about destroyed cities, desicrations, masacres and their ilk performed by our troops. I don't want to hear more stories of the raping of children performed by those in our uniforms, fighting under our colors. You can argue the 'stress of war', 'heat of the moment', etc. I will acknowledge that accidents happen. But certain lines must not be crossed again. -THAT- is unAmerican. The masacres in Vietnam and Korea must never again be repeated by American soliders.

Many do not know history. I seek to remind them of that history, so that they can say "Never Again". It makes no difference to me for I will never serve in the military. But those who will, must know so they can not only safely retire from their service in pride, but know that by their service, they raised the shine on the entire organization.

I want to look back at the whole Iraq war and feel proud of how our men and women in uniform acted. I want to look at their examples and feel inspired at their actions. I don't want the actions of a few criminals to tarnish the success of the operation.

 

[Tgace]

Gee what "police forces" could you be talking about?? Do you really want to open that can of worms here Bob??

 

[Bob Hubbard]

We can't just pull out. We must finish the job once started.

Restoring order, rebuilding the infrastructure, and educating the general population on how democracy works should be (and I believe are) the goals before we withdraw.

Disarming the country is going to be a key part of that, however that's gonna take a while. They have more guns per person it seems than I have comic books, and thats saying alot.

The peoples basic needs must be met. Food, water, electricity, and security. After that, you expand the scope. Now obviously, food and water are key parts anywhere.
Water treatment centers must be rebuild, upgraded and renewed. New water lines run. Roads repaired, and warehouses built, guarded and used as distribution points.

The police force must be trained in modern police methods, and made ready to act like cops. "To serve and protect" must become their mantra. I don't know if building a few Krispy Kremes would help, but you'll know its mission acomplished when it happens.

Seriously, those experienced with urban renewal / rebuilding should be brough in to help guide the restoration. Competent contractors able to do the job right, not just low-bidders who cut corners. To do that, their safety must be ensured. A million bucks isn't enough to send me to Iraq right now...I value my life over fleeting greenery. A safe enviroment would encourage more of our techs to go there and help.

Its a hard road, and there will be more losses. I can only hope that those planning the rebuilding have the knowledge they need, or know who to call when the time is right to fill in the gaps they have.

Unlike many, I am not alarmed by the loses. Saddened yes, but not alarmed.
5 years from now, if we are still engaged in military action, and the losses have hit the 100,000 mark....then, I'll be alarmed.

 

[loki09789]

Paul,
It is my -right- as an American to speak out and bring notice to those wrongs which I see.

It is my -duty- as an American to do so.

It is my -Privilige- as well.

To see the evil, and say nothing is to become part of it.

If you saw a cop raping a woman, or beating a man, or stealing from the old, but you were unable to act, would you remain silient?
If you knew of corruption, but were unable to change it directly, would you hold your voice?

You may dismiss my own efforts and the efforts of -thousands- of others by saying "you guys do nothing but complain.". It won't change the fact that someone has to have the testicular fortitude to speak up, for those who can not. Eventually, enough people speaking out, will get the attention of those who -can- make a change. When critical mass is achieved, change occurs.

You read the hundreds of reports of atrocities, abuses of power, etc. Everything from the masacres in 'Nam, to the certain police forces racial profiling of black drivers. Someone must speak up for those who can't, or won't.

Why were many of our ground troops sent to Iraq -without- protective armour? So bad was the worry, that familiys were buying it themselves so that their loved ones would be safe. Why didn't the military take care of its own here?

You may call those of us who speak out 'unamerican'....but it is those who complacently sit at home and wait for the score who are in fact UnAmerican.

It is my -right- and -duty- to take the President and Congress to task over the paths they lead us. They are supposed to be looking out for our collective best interests, not lining their small circle of supporters pockets at the expense of our brightest youth.

As to the military..I do support them. Military family n all that y'know. However, I do not want to read about destroyed cities, desicrations, masacres and their ilk performed by our troops. I don't want to hear more stories of the raping of children performed by those in our uniforms, fighting under our colors. You can argue the 'stress of war', 'heat of the moment', etc. I will acknowledge that accidents happen. But certain lines must not be crossed again. -THAT- is unAmerican. The masacres in Vietnam and Korea must never again be repeated by American soliders.

Many do not know history. I seek to remind them of that history, so that they can say "Never Again". It makes no difference to me for I will never serve in the military. But those who will, must know so they can not only safely retire from their service in pride, but know that by their service, they raised the shine on the entire organization.

I want to look back at the whole Iraq war and feel proud of how our men and women in uniform acted. I want to look at their examples and feel inspired at their actions. I don't want the actions of a few criminals to tarnish the success of the operation.

And when the troops come home, some who have had access to this forum and could be reading your focus on the attrocities and darkness of those who serve, what kind of greeting do you expect? What do you think they will say about your refusal to participate yet choice to comment? Keeping the homefires burning doesn't mean throwing the baby on the fire with the...bath water (now that doesn't work does it)

I mean really, I was 'in' and chose to get out for my family/son and my integrity/honor and courage came into question. I felt like a heal standing in front of the unit commander on the day of the 9/11 response activation and telling him that I had already requested Inactive Reserve status because of family/personal reason but, if they didn't have enough bodies, I was ready to go if he gave me the order.

What kind of perception of your military support do you expect?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Gee what "police forces" could you be talking about?? Do you really want to open that can of worms here Bob??

Not really. But..since you mentioned it... http://www.counterpunch.org/drivingblack.html
http://www.racialprofilinganalysis.neu.edu/article.php?article_type=whats_new

They omited the WNY connection you seem jumpy about though.....

But please....lets do that dance on a different thread.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

And when the troops come home, some who have had access to this forum and could be reading your focus on the attrocities and darkness of those who serve, what kind of greeting do you expect? What do you think they will say about your refusal to participate yet choice to comment? Keeping the homefires burning doesn't mean throwing the baby on the fire with the...bath water (now that doesn't work does it)

If they take the time to read -all- of my comments they will understand.
They will see the often cited desire for their safe return. They will see the support. They will see my articles on the war which I have posted across the internet, in both the US and Canada.
(http://rustaz.com/writings/nonfiction/iraq.htm)

They will understand.