Emin Boztepe
- Thread starter Tames D
- Start date
Thanks for some good old clips of Emin. That was 25 years ago! I met him in that period ....a great 'Chunner and fighter, but not easy to train under! Last time I ran into him was about 2009 or so? Older, wiser, and mellower. A very good instructor IMO. WC (all lineages) could use more guys like him.
If you were not strong, and a quick learner, like many gifted fighters, he could lose patience. And if you weren't at the high level of physical ability needed to hang with him, you could get hurt. My former training partner and si-dai in WT became Emin's room mate for a short time and blew out his knee training with Emin.
Interestingly, he has no hard feelings toward Emin about this (or vice versa). In spite of his injuries, that guy did improve tremendously from his time with Emin. It's just that if you are going to play with tigers, you better be a tiger!
BTW ...I'm talking about the "early Emin" in the USA ...his trips here in the late 80s after beating William Cheung, and on into the early 90s. After another decade or so, people say he mellowed considerably moving on from a "fighter" mentality to more of a coach and trainer.
Now I've only met Emin a few times. If there are any EBMAS WT people on this forum, I'm sure they can contribute more regarding this remarkable WT personality.
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punisher73
Senior Master
Never been impressed with jumping an older man at his own seminar and then claiming how you "beat him". Props to him for mellowing as he got older.
Yeah, in his defense, he was really just an arrogant kid back then and he was put up to this stunt by others who stood to benefit from the publicity.
...And that "older man" did have a big roll in provoking the encounter, making outrageous claims, issuing public challenges against all comers, then promoting a seminar virtually in the other group's back yard.... you gotta admit, there was a definite pro-wrestler smack talk quality to the whole affair. I think of the whole thing as Europe's answer to Count Dante
Anyways, now days with legitimate venues for physical contests (MMA, etc.) such dangerous silliness has apparently become obsolete.
...And that "older man" did have a big roll in provoking the encounter, making outrageous claims, issuing public challenges against all comers, then promoting a seminar virtually in the other group's back yard.... you gotta admit, there was a definite pro-wrestler smack talk quality to the whole affair. I think of the whole thing as Europe's answer to Count Dante
Anyways, now days with legitimate venues for physical contests (MMA, etc.) such dangerous silliness has apparently become obsolete.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That video always intrigued me. All of that training and practice by two "grandmasters", and when the chips fall down you end up fighting like two untrained children in a schoolyard.
OP
OP
Yeah, I agree. I wonder what Emin's thoughts are about that ugly encounter. I've never seen any comments from him regarding it.
I thought Emin tripped him quite well. Punching from on top on the ground was ok for someone not specifically trained in this. Clinch and ground skills of the other guy look very poor.
The whole ordeal looked like sloppy pro wrestling to me, no wing chun there. Emin certainly didn't use any "Wing Tsun" to subdue Cheung, this just made wing chun look like bad overall due to the fact that Cheung was out of his element on the ground, and Emin didn't use any WT to beat him. What are they masters of, it certainly wasn't wing chun lolyou gotta admit, there was a definite pro-wrestler smack talk quality to the whole affair.
This is an interesting point. At that point Emin was already quite proficient at applying his WT and William Cheung, whatever you think of his claims, was a direct student of Yip Man who also had considerable sparring and challenge-match experience as a young man. Yet when the fight went to the ground it took on the character of unsophisticated brawling. Why?
Two reasons, IMO. First, it went to the ground almost immediately. WC still has a woefully deficient ground game, and it was even worse back in the 80s. Later, Emin trained extensively for the ground with various grapplers, but he was not experienced on the ground at that time. And obviously, neither was Cheung.
The second reason people don't see much WT/WC in that clip is that when the stuff hits the fan, nothing goes as planned. People are expecting moves like in a movie. That just isn't realistic. Look at Alan Orr's guys and gals. They train CSL Wing Chun principles, but in the ring it takes on a different form entirely.
Alan has gotten a lot of criticism for this, and has answered it in many posts and videoclips. I listen to what he says over armchair critics. My conclusion, is that when the going gets tough or even chaotic, don't expect to see beautiful "style" ...regardless of your system. If you know what to look for, though, you can still see a lot of content.
BTW, even though that clip had the slowed-down section, the quality was quite poor. I had a chance to see the original, uncut VHS footage back in the 80s and you could pick up a lot more. For a guy with no grappling game, Emin did a surprisingly good job (as a striker), maintaining dominance and controlling Cheung on the ground so he could rain down punches and elbows. Remember, this was way before UFC where "ground and pound" became something every school kid tried to imitate.
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Not taking any sides here in this old dead-horse issue, but a very important point about that video that is often overlooked is - this clip is grossly edited/clipped short by one side (Emin's camp).
Where is the pre-contact stage? We only see it from the point where they are locked together.
Was GM WC jumped and then the camera picks up from there?
Or were they both in equal agreement and readiness for the 'challenge'?
Also, another good point is, GM WC got back up and then went on to complete his seminar with no issue. So IMO no one really won/lost that 'encounter', except maybe an embarrassing black eye to the WC community in general
Where is the pre-contact stage? We only see it from the point where they are locked together.
Was GM WC jumped and then the camera picks up from there?
Or were they both in equal agreement and readiness for the 'challenge'?
Also, another good point is, GM WC got back up and then went on to complete his seminar with no issue. So IMO no one really won/lost that 'encounter', except maybe an embarrassing black eye to the WC community in general
Not taking any sides here in this old dead-horse issue, but a very important point about that video that is often overlooked is - this clip is grossly edited/clipped short
The bolded part above is worth noting. See my previous post. Oh and by the way, William Cheung deserves kudos for attempting to complete his seminar. He was pretty bruised up. I've seen the pictures. If it had been worse, I'd think assault charges would have been filed. As it is, I'm not sure why they weren't.
Emin was far from any Grand Master back in those days. He was 24 years old and had been training WT for about five or six years at that point. I talked to him about it some years later and there was no chest-thumping or bragging, in fact he was almost sorry it happened despite the notoriety it gave him.
I half-way remember reading something about Emin having some training in Turkish Wrestling prior to starting Wing Chun. But that was a long time ago and may have just been someone shooting off.
Personally I believe Emin was probably a little worried about Cheung's reputation on his feet, so he immediately took him to the ground where he knew he would have his best chance. This seems to have been his intention all along. Emin mentioned somewhere that he had done some Turkish wrestling before this incident.
Good point! it was be nice to see the complete unedited version. it was obviously chopped up to promote Leung Ting's WT system over TWC. Emin even admitted that it was Leung Ting and Kernspect that put him up to it.
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