Elite female judo vs untrained male

wab25

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Bro! First of all Good impression makes audience cheer for you..
Believe it or not... not all of us train to fight in front of an audience. So, we are not real concerned with whether they cheer or not.
My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...
The tactic he is explaining is a common tactic that can be and has been, quite effective for many people. I will admit it is kind of basic. But it is a place to start. And he knows what he is trying to do, where he wants the fight to be and is confident in being able to force the fight he wants... which is a substantial advantage.

I am not sure what you meant by "it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw..." But that tactic certainly is useful.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...
Why?

You use kick to set up punch, use punch to set up clinch, use clinch to take your opponent down. The ground game then start after that.

This is the most natural way to start and finish a fight.
 

Ironbear24

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Bro! First of all Good impression makes audience cheer for you.. Second My main concern was not that what people thinks but My main concern was that the tactic you're explaining is not useful as it makes all the way to the clean defeat or draw...
How so?
 

BrendanF

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Kung Fu Wang

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Those are not 'double hooks' Wang laoshi - it literally says so at the bottom of the screen. Just FYI.
The hook can be used in many different ways.

It can be a

1. hook punch.
2. hay-maker.
3. head lock.
4. initial part of a spiral punch.
5. initial part of an under hook.
6. wrist grab.
7. downward parry.
8. defense for jab/cross.

Example of using double hooks to achieve double wrists control.

 
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BrendanF

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The hook can be used in many different ways.

It can be a

1. hook punch.
2. hay-maker.
3. head lock.
4. initial part of a spiral punch.
5. initial part of an under hook.
6. wrist grab.
7. downward parry.
8. defense for jab/cross.

Example of using double hooks to achieve double wrists control.


Those are also not hooks. The GIF you posted explicitly states 'Rear hand trap lead hand Cross' Your misappropriation of terminology is creating confusion.
 

Ironbear24

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Yeah you obviously has nothing of substance to add to the conversation, welcome to being ignored.
 

BigMotor

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Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?
Judo works and it has the potential to be deadly effective. The fighter that is using it is the determining factor.

With good training and effort you can become an excellent fighter. Prepare yourself to take some lumps, and give some lumps in matches. That is the best way to test your skill.
 

BigMotor

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One of our girls beat a judo Olympian


Anyway. Ronda Rousey vs men on a game show.


Meisha Tate vs men.

When she picked that guy up in a choke hold and lifted, he was toast . Ive done that in wrestling, and it has the potential to put a hurt on somebody.
 

RavenDarkfellow

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Is judo effective in a real fight? Who would win if an elite female judoka (105lb) against a bigger untrained guy (150lb) in a real fight?
While the truth is that anything can happen in a real fight, and therefore even a 105 lb. man could possibly defeat a 220 lbs (muscular) man, the gap between size, strength, and skill creates ever greater unlikelihood in the favour of the bigger/stronger/skilled person.

All that said, in general, I'd put my money on a 105 female master judoka over an average 150 lbs. male, any day. Short of a "master" (and by that, really I mean black belt.... let's not get into the entirely irrelevant-to-this-conversation dispute about black belt not really being a master, etc.) I don't know. Weight and strength play significant factors in the world of fighting.

I, more than a great many people, wish that weren't true-- but it's just reality.
 

Hanzou

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While the truth is that anything can happen in a real fight, and therefore even a 105 lb. man could possibly defeat a 220 lbs (muscular) man, the gap between size, strength, and skill creates ever greater unlikelihood in the favour of the bigger/stronger/skilled person.

All that said, in general, I'd put my money on a 105 female master judoka over an average 150 lbs. male, any day. Short of a "master" (and by that, really I mean black belt.... let's not get into the entirely irrelevant-to-this-conversation dispute about black belt not really being a master, etc.) I don't know. Weight and strength play significant factors in the world of fighting.

I, more than a great many people, wish that weren't true-- but it's just reality.

Honestly I wouldn't put money on her. Judo or no Judo, a 45 lb weight difference isn't easy to overcome, and unfortunately Judo really requires a high proficiency of technical skill to be effective. In other words, the female Judoka really can't afford to make any mistakes. Also unlike more MMA-friendly systems like BJJ, she may have never been taught how to deal with someone striking her while she's trying to throw. That could really place her at a severe disadvantage.

That said, she's better off with Judo than not knowing anything at all.
 

RavenDarkfellow

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Honestly I wouldn't put money on her. Judo or no Judo, a 45 lb weight difference isn't easy to overcome, and unfortunately Judo really requires a high proficiency of technical skill to be effective. In other words, the female Judoka really can't afford to make any mistakes. Also unlike more MMA-friendly systems like BJJ, she may have never been taught how to deal with someone striking her while she's trying to throw. That could really place her at a severe disadvantage.

That said, she's better off with Judo than not knowing anything at all.

I get what you're saying, and there's nothing I particularly disagree with-- except, I think, my conclusion of the sum total of variables.

When we're talking about male vs. female fighters, if we assume the same number of years in the art, the same dedication to said art, and roughly similar physical conditioning, then the only real differences between the female and male fighters are bone density (which can make a difference) and distribution of muscle density.

Women tend to have pound-for-pound higher muscle concentration in their legs, men in their torso and arms.

So 105 female judoka "master" vs. 150 untrained male, means someone with advanced technical grappling (arm) skills and stronger lower body, vs. potentially experienced "street" fighter with a stronger upper body. Yeah, anything can happen in a fight, and all it takes is one good shot to knock someone out.

I however, made a few assumptions in my original assessment: that the dude is just an average dude (which makes him sloppy and over-confident, since nearly every man thinks he knows how to fight, and seemingly less than 10% of them actually do); and that the Judoka is a true martial artist, and learned how to actually use her judo in real-world situations.

I made that latter assumption because every judo school I've ever been to, has been thoroughly realistic, the practitioners tough and made to drill their basics until it was like breathing, and particularly for most women who are constantly outweighed by their training partners, technique is paramount to in-class "survival". So if a woman has practised to the point of attaining her black-belt, I would assume she's genuinely quite capable in the art.

So yeah, I'd still put my money on the woman-- but I guess I've always had a soft spot for the (apparent) underdog. (I.E. She appears to be the underdog due to being 45 lbs. lighter.)

Meanwhile, in BJJ, I'm rolling at around 230lbs. and regularly getting my *** handed to me by dudes at around 160 lbs. Of course, this situation is a little skewed, since I'm fat (but not that fat... I'm also 6'0" and have a decent amount of muscle) and they're mostly quite fit. Still, that's a full fly-weight fighter worth of weight difference, and despite my many years off and on in the art, they're beating me with solid technique more than fitness.
 

Hanzou

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I get what you're saying, and there's nothing I particularly disagree with-- except, I think, my conclusion of the sum total of variables.

When we're talking about male vs. female fighters, if we assume the same number of years in the art, the same dedication to said art, and roughly similar physical conditioning, then the only real differences between the female and male fighters are bone density (which can make a difference) and distribution of muscle density.

Women tend to have pound-for-pound higher muscle concentration in their legs, men in their torso and arms.

So 105 female judoka "master" vs. 150 untrained male, means someone with advanced technical grappling (arm) skills and stronger lower body, vs. potentially experienced "street" fighter with a stronger upper body. Yeah, anything can happen in a fight, and all it takes is one good shot to knock someone out.

I however, made a few assumptions in my original assessment: that the dude is just an average dude (which makes him sloppy and over-confident, since nearly every man thinks he knows how to fight, and seemingly less than 10% of them actually do); and that the Judoka is a true martial artist, and learned how to actually use her judo in real-world situations.

I made that latter assumption because every judo school I've ever been to, has been thoroughly realistic, the practitioners tough and made to drill their basics until it was like breathing, and particularly for most women who are constantly outweighed by their training partners, technique is paramount to in-class "survival". So if a woman has practised to the point of attaining her black-belt, I would assume she's genuinely quite capable in the art.

So yeah, I'd still put my money on the woman-- but I guess I've always had a soft spot for the (apparent) underdog. (I.E. She appears to be the underdog due to being 45 lbs. lighter.)

Meanwhile, in BJJ, I'm rolling at around 230lbs. and regularly getting my *** handed to me by dudes at around 160 lbs. Of course, this situation is a little skewed, since I'm fat (but not that fat... I'm also 6'0" and have a decent amount of muscle) and they're mostly quite fit. Still, that's a full fly-weight fighter worth of weight difference, and despite my many years off and on in the art, they're beating me with solid technique more than fitness.

Well there's some pretty stark differences between BJJ and Judo. Judo is far more rigid and really doesn't give people the opportunity to innovate and develop moves and techniques that could more benefit their personal style. In addition, the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents. That in turn increases the required technical proficiency required to properly pull off a Judo technique.

If we were talking about a female black belt in BJJ, I would greatly up her chances. No offense towards Judo, but BJJ is simply a more robust grappling system.
 

RavenDarkfellow

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Well there's some pretty stark differences between BJJ and Judo. Judo is far more rigid and really doesn't give people the opportunity to innovate and develop moves and techniques that could more benefit their personal style. In addition, the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents. That in turn increases the required technical proficiency required to properly pull off a Judo technique.

If we were talking about a female black belt in BJJ, I would greatly up her chances. No offense towards Judo, but BJJ is simply a more robust grappling system.

Having practised both, if we're referring to a "good" school (where they train vigorously and with realism), I would expect a fighter who's only trained in Judo to win in a street fight over a fighter who's only trained in BJJ, 4/5 times. Not that I disagree with your assessment of BJJ as a more robust grappling system (it absolutely is), but because Judo employs a great many of the same locking techniques, just from a philosophy of staying on one's feet vs. going to the ground.

Judo also contains many techniques for actively defending against strikes, then catching those strikes, transitioning that to a take-down, transitioning that take-down to a submission, all in a single flow.

BJJ on the other hand, assumes nobody will ever be striking, and that you'll be on the ground the whole time. It's 100% better at its specialty, but it's also 100% locked into its specialty. Judo goes from your feet, to the ground, and back up again.

Aside from Shaolin Gung Fu or Wushu, Judo seems (from what I've learned) to be the single most effective individual art for handling real-world fights.

(I'm not including more modern arts like Krav Maga, Kajukenbo, etc., since these are just amalgams of other arts. Judo is a unique art offshoot from Japanese Jujutsu, and JJJ arts tend to be pretty robust and effective, themselves.)

If there was some hypothetical scenario where we had to take a completely untrained person, give them one year in a single martial art (again, excluding the arts comprised of multiple arts) for which they had to find a school in North America and become proficient, I would tell them to go Judo, and never look back.
 

Hanzou

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Having practised both, if we're referring to a "good" school (where they train vigorously and with realism), I would expect a fighter who's only trained in Judo to win in a street fight over a fighter who's only trained in BJJ, 4/5 times. Not that I disagree with your assessment of BJJ as a more robust grappling system (it absolutely is), but because Judo employs a great many of the same locking techniques, just from a philosophy of staying on one's feet vs. going to the ground.

Judo also contains many techniques for actively defending against strikes, then catching those strikes, transitioning that to a take-down, transitioning that take-down to a submission, all in a single flow.

BJJ on the other hand, assumes nobody will ever be striking, and that you'll be on the ground the whole time. It's 100% better at its specialty, but it's also 100% locked into its specialty. Judo goes from your feet, to the ground, and back up again.


I have no idea where you practiced BJJ, but that assessment is wildly inaccurate. The closed guard alone is based on the assumption that someone will be striking you, and it's pretty much the foundation of BJJ ground fighting. In addition, the notion that a BJJer's strategy is to "stay on the ground the entire time" is wildly inaccurate as well. The sooner you finish them, the sooner you can walk away.

Also how can you say that Judo employs a great many of the same locks when they don't have wrist or leg locks?

I also need to really stress this, because I see this notion a lot, but there's a belief that if you throw someone to the ground, you win and that person never gets back up again. I have seen situations both in real life and video where people are slammed multiple times by wrestlers and Judoka, and they get right back up again and continue to attack. So your gameplan may be to stay on your feet, but that may not always be the case, especially if you have a severe weight disadvantage.

Aside from Shaolin Gung Fu or Wushu, Judo seems (from what I've learned) to be the single most effective individual art for handling real-world fights.

(I'm not including more modern arts like Krav Maga, Kajukenbo, etc., since these are just amalgams of other arts. Judo is a unique art offshoot from Japanese Jujutsu, and JJJ arts tend to be pretty robust and effective, themselves.)

If there was some hypothetical scenario where we had to take a completely untrained person, give them one year in a single martial art (again, excluding the arts comprised of multiple arts) for which they had to find a school in North America and become proficient, I would tell them to go Judo, and never look back.

Yeah, I'm well aware of the history of Judo. I think it's odd that you're ignoring the decades of codification where many techniques were removed in order to make it a more efficient sport. The removal of leg locks almost a century ago, and the banning of the double leg takedown almost a decade ago would be prime examples.
 

Unkogami

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.....

I also need to really stress this, because I see this notion a lot, but there's a belief that if you throw someone to the ground, you win and that person never gets back up again. I have seen situations both in real life and video where people are slammed multiple times by wrestlers and Judoka, and they get right back up again and continue to attack. .....
That's why a lot of people make the mistake (in the street) of allowing space between themselves and their opponent during and following a throw or the like.
 
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