Elite female judo vs untrained male

RavenDarkfellow

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I have no idea where you practiced BJJ, but that assessment is wildly inaccurate. The closed guard alone is based on the assumption that someone will be striking you, and it's pretty much the foundation of BJJ ground fighting. In addition, the notion that a BJJer's strategy is to "stay on the ground the entire time" is wildly inaccurate as well. The sooner you finish them, the sooner you can walk away.

Also how can you say that Judo employs a great many of the same locks when they don't have wrist or leg locks?

I also need to really stress this, because I see this notion a lot, but there's a belief that if you throw someone to the ground, you win and that person never gets back up again. I have seen situations both in real life and video where people are slammed multiple times by wrestlers and Judoka, and they get right back up again and continue to attack. So your gameplan may be to stay on your feet, but that may not always be the case, especially if you have a severe weight disadvantage.



Yeah, I'm well aware of the history of Judo. I think it's odd that you're ignoring the decades of codification where many techniques were removed in order to make it a more efficient sport. The removal of leg locks almost a century ago, and the banning of the double leg takedown almost a decade ago would be prime examples.

I think, perhaps, the disconnect in our information comes from this: as a martial artist, I look specifically for gyms/dojos with a focus on real-world practical application, and true self-defense. I don't (typically) go to gyms whose primary goal of training is the sport aspect.

That said, when it comes to BJJ, I've never encountered one (in the USA or Canada) whose focus was self-defense over sport. Every single one I've found has been sport focussed. Meanwhile, the (admittedly very few) only Judo dojos I've found, they were exclusively focused on self-defense, not sport.

So my personal experience with the arts has been just as I've said-- but my conversations with a broad array of other martial artists have only served to reinforce the assessments based on my experiences.

As far as being "wildly inaccurate", I'm well aware of the closed guard, and its supposed handling of strikes. Sure, that's good if you can flying-scissors your way onto the dude's body while he's standing, or else get him to the ground in the first place-- but then of course, he can still slam you (which hurts a lot more on a street than it does on a mat in a gym), and beyond that: it's not as though you having full guard on a standing (or grounded) opponent actually puts you at the advantage for dealing with strikes-- at best, it puts you neutral.

I'm not sure you understand the nature of self-defense judo however, because leg-locks and double-leg takedowns aren't good options if your intent is to ground your opponent and then gain a control lock or break his limbs. That's the intent of Judo. Not to "throw and let go" as you seem to have the false impression it is.
 

Hanzou

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I think, perhaps, the disconnect in our information comes from this: as a martial artist, I look specifically for gyms/dojos with a focus on real-world practical application, and true self-defense. I don't (typically) go to gyms whose primary goal of training is the sport aspect.

That said, when it comes to BJJ, I've never encountered one (in the USA or Canada) whose focus was self-defense over sport. Every single one I've found has been sport focussed. Meanwhile, the (admittedly very few) only Judo dojos I've found, they were exclusively focused on self-defense, not sport.

So my personal experience with the arts has been just as I've said-- but my conversations with a broad array of other martial artists have only served to reinforce the assessments based on my experiences.

As far as being "wildly inaccurate", I'm well aware of the closed guard, and its supposed handling of strikes. Sure, that's good if you can flying-scissors your way onto the dude's body while he's standing, or else get him to the ground in the first place-- but then of course, he can still slam you (which hurts a lot more on a street than it does on a mat in a gym), and beyond that: it's not as though you having full guard on a standing (or grounded) opponent actually puts you at the advantage for dealing with strikes-- at best, it puts you neutral.

I'm not sure you understand the nature of self-defense judo however, because leg-locks and double-leg takedowns aren't good options if your intent is to ground your opponent and then gain a control lock or break his limbs. That's the intent of Judo. Not to "throw and let go" as you seem to have the false impression it is.

Uh, you mean in situations like this;

https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1
Where someone tackles you and you have to fight them off of you from the bottom? A quite common situation if you're dealing with someone who is larger than you are, or if you attempt a throw and they accidentally fall on top of you. You know, something that can quite easily happen if you have a small woman trying to perform a Judo throw on a larger person.

In addition, offensively you don't need to do a flying scissors to place someone in guard. You can simply pull guard from a variety of positions. One such position is from a standing guillotine choke where you simply fall into guard in order to increase your control over their body to avoid knees or groin attacks.

Also why would you allow someone to slam you while you have them in guard? The entire point of closed guard is to control their posture, and you know when you're losing control of someone's posture rather quickly. Further, if someone starts to lift you up, there's multitudes of sweeps you can perform from that position, the waiter sweep and the double ankle sweep just name two.

This is fundamental stuff.

Double Leg takedowns aren't good options if your intent is to ground your opponent? Like seriously, what? I don't even know what to say in regards to that. You do understand that Judo banned the DLT because it was so effective at gaining ippons that it was eroding the more technical (difficult) throws right?

As for self-defense based BJJ, the Gracie line of BJJ is pretty much entirely SD based. Especially Relson's and Rorian's branches.
 

InfiniteLoop

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Children BJJ practitioners strangled adult male karatekas, so of course an elite female judoka beats an untrained male.

 

RavenDarkfellow

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Uh, you mean in situations like this;

https://www.reddit.com/r/StreetMartialArts/comments/pdd3y1
Where someone tackles you and you have to fight them off of you from the bottom? A quite common situation if you're dealing with someone who is larger than you are, or if you attempt a throw and they accidentally fall on top of you. You know, something that can quite easily happen if you have a small woman trying to perform a Judo throw on a larger person.

In addition, offensively you don't need to do a flying scissors to place someone in guard. You can simply pull guard from a variety of positions. One such position is from a standing guillotine choke where you simply fall into guard in order to increase your control over their body to avoid knees or groin attacks.

Also why would you allow someone to slam you while you have them in guard? The entire point of closed guard is to control their posture, and you know when you're losing control of someone's posture rather quickly. Further, if someone starts to lift you up, there's multitudes of sweeps you can perform from that position, the waiter sweep and the double ankle sweep just name two.

This is fundamental stuff.

Double Leg takedowns aren't good options if your intent is to ground your opponent? Like seriously, what? I don't even know what to say in regards to that. You do understand that Judo banned the DLT because it was so effective at gaining ippons that it was eroding the more technical (difficult) throws right?

As for self-defense based BJJ, the Gracie line of BJJ is pretty much entirely SD based. Especially Relson's and Rorian's branches.

Wow, I'm getting a strong sense that a lot of people on this board like to read whatever it is that triggers them, then stop reading the rest of the sentence and respond only to that. Also, arguing for arguments' sake; blatant disrespect and ignorance of one's own ignorance... not what I would expect from martial artists. I'm not into it.
 

lklawson

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Judo is far more rigid and really doesn't give people the opportunity to innovate and develop moves and techniques that could more benefit their personal style. In addition, the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents.
That kinda depends on the Dojo you're at. If it is a very shiai-focused club with no cross-training, then, often that is true. If it is a dojo that isn't strongly focused on competition then they will often delve into the old stuff that's been removed from competition such as single/double-leg takedowns, ankle-picks, leg-locks, etc. If you are at a dojo that orients to the old Kosen Judo or the new Freestyle Judo, it's not so much true. If you are at a Dojo that has a lot of BJJ cross-trainers (or just cross-trainers in general) then it's not so much true.

It really just depends on where you're at and what their focus is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Hanzou

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That kinda depends on the Dojo you're at. If it is a very shiai-focused club with no cross-training, then, often that is true. If it is a dojo that isn't strongly focused on competition then they will often delve into the old stuff that's been removed from competition such as single/double-leg takedowns, ankle-picks, leg-locks, etc. If you are at a dojo that orients to the old Kosen Judo or the new Freestyle Judo, it's not so much true. If you are at a Dojo that has a lot of BJJ cross-trainers (or just cross-trainers in general) then it's not so much true.

It really just depends on where you're at and what their focus is.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I'll have to take your word for it. The last few Judo clubs I visited put some rather ridiculous restrictions on Newaza to the point where I never came back.
 

InfiniteLoop

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the lack of leg lock, nogi, choke variety, the Guard, and leg-based takedowns also makes it a bit more difficult for weaker/smaller individuals in Judo to overcome larger opponents.

You could not be more wrong. Judo is about weight displacement and technique more than strength. This is largely due to its clothing dependent techniques. You can use judo with strength but it isn't what it's meant for.
 

InfiniteLoop

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If there's ever an undersized female grappler I would put my money on in a clinch with a man, then it's a judoka. At least if both wear jackets....
 

Hanzou

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You could not be more wrong. Judo is about weight displacement and technique more than strength. This is largely due to its clothing dependent techniques. You can use judo with strength but it isn't what it's meant for.

Yeah, but a 10-year old judoka is not going to toss a 6'5 grown man, no matter how skilled in Judo they are. That's the point.
 

InfiniteLoop

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Yeah, but a 10-year old judoka is not going to toss a 6'5 grown man, no matter how skilled in Judo they are. That's the point.

An elite female judoka is not 10 years old. This was about grown-ups. Whatever odds you give the female judoka in a clinch, they are higher than for a BJJ black belt or wrestler assuming there's jackets involved.
 

InfiniteLoop

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Ronda Roussey has trained with lots of men and as she says, she needs to lock it in so to speak

Will she ever be in a position to lock it in though? That's the big question.

Joe Rogan concluded that she wouldn't, if the man is any good at fighting and actually fights back.

I am a trained martial artist with no grappling credentials (but a very strong and good grappler naturally) and I do not believe that Ronda Roussey would do anything to me in an MMA fight. I would fight her for no money. Ronda Roussey would not fight me however. I guarantee that. Not that any organization would sanction it.
 

Hanzou

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An elite female judoka is not 10 years old. This was about grown-ups.

If its all about weight distribution and skill, the age wouldn't matter right? We could have children tossing around adults if your example was true. This is the folly of buying into martial arts magic. Again, Judo requires a high level of technical skill to be effective, especially if you're dealing with a weight disadvantage like this Judoka would be.

As for Wrestling and BJJ, part of the reason the Double Leg Takedown was banned from Judo competition was that it was too easy to pull off, and that lone technique began to dominate the sport. In terms of BJJ, any competitor worth their salt will know that if there's a Judoka in the competition you Guard pull them because it negates their stand up game completely.

And yeah, I've been around plenty of Judoka and they all HATE Guard pulling because it's monstrously effective.


Whatever odds you give the female judoka in a clinch, they are higher than for a BJJ black belt or wrestler assuming there's jackets involved.

So you're saying that if its warm outside, you live in a warmer climate, or have to fight someone indoors, don't take Judo?
 

InfiniteLoop

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If its all about weight distribution and skill, the age wouldn't matter right?
I didn't write "all". i wrote that it's more about that strength compared to wrestling. If you take a kid then we also have to factor in astronomical height and reach disadvantages. As for my strength claims, I know about these since a high level wrestlers did dabble in judo an said that the judokas weren't even close to the strength of wrestlers. Judokas are still strong, though.
 

Hanzou

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I didn't write "all". i wrote that it's more about that strength compared to wrestling. If you take a kid then we also have to factor in astronomical height and reach disadvantages. As for my strength claims, I know about these since a high level wrestlers did dabble in judo an said that the judokas weren't even close to the strength of wrestlers. Judokas are still strong, though.

Yeah, but if you're arguing that the size and weight of the person you're throwing is a non-issue, you're living in a fantasy world. The fact of the matter is that the reason BJJ and Wrestling have an advantage over Judo is that those styles offer the grappler more openings to take someone down from multiple levels. Leg Locks in BJJ being a major example of this. Leg Locks are very effective against someone bigger and stronger than you, and they're pretty much absent in modern Judo.
 

InfiniteLoop

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Yeah, but if you're arguing that the size and weight of the person you're throwing is a non-issue, you're living in a fantasy world. The fact of the matter is that the reason BJJ and Wrestling have an advantage over Judo is that those styles offer the grappler more openings to take someone down from multiple levels. Leg Locks in BJJ being a major example of this. Leg Locks are very effective against someone bigger and stronger than you, and they're pretty much absent in modern Judo.

It pretty much is assuming the the man is clueless and the female isn't a midget . Blind grappling aggression will help the female in that she will redirect their force with her toss. I have used judo against clueless people using pretty much no brute strength. I at least didn't felt it.
 

Hanzou

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It pretty much is assuming the the man is clueless and the female isn't a midget . Blind grappling aggression will help the female in that she will redirect their force with her toss. I have used judo against clueless people using pretty much no brute strength. I at least didn't felt it.

Maybe. There's also a chance she could be overwhelmed by the aggressive force. Hence why she needs a more holistic grappling system than what Judo provides.
 

Steve

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Ronda Roussey has trained with lots of men and as she says, she needs to lock it in so to speak

Will she ever be in a position to lock it in though? That's the big question.

Joe Rogan concluded that she wouldn't, if the man is any good at fighting and actually fights back.

I am a trained martial artist with no grappling credentials (but a very strong and good grappler naturally) and I do not believe that Ronda Roussey would do anything to me in an MMA fight. I would fight her for no money. Ronda Roussey would not fight me however. I guarantee that. Not that any organization would sanction it.
My money is on rousey. Let me know when thats going to happen.
 

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