DTE Combat Wing Chun Lap Sau drill fighting application

[Jake104]

DTE Chief Instructor Martin Torres explaining the Lap sau drill and pak sau and how we in DTE transition from drills into fighting application. We are working the clinch..Not sure if you can see in the video but the wooden dummie pretty much saved my head from going into the wall. I kind of giggle cause I'm posting all my weight on the dummy and if I didn't react quick my head would of went through the wall. This is a demonstration and only at 20%.. I do look tired in video cause we were at the end of a 3hr training session..But I DO have a good stance and structure some on here will attest to that....Even better since the last time I trained with local members of MAT..So you can see how easily he blew though me..

 

[SaulGoodman]

I don't do the cyclical lap Sao drill the way shown at the start, pointless. But the clinch stuff is cool not dissimilar to what I like to teach. Nice to see someone not pigeon holing lap and pak as punch defenses...

 

[geezer]

For those who don't know about him ...Martin isn't really a Wing Chun guy. His outlook is much broader than WC, but WC concepts definitely figure into the picture. Some of us see DTE as "What JKD should be!"

or ... I think of Martin as our answer to Alan Orr, except that Martin doesn't care if you see the WC in his stuff or not. The point is that is works! I'm just sorry that I live on the wrong side of the valley and don't get to train with you guys anymore. Gonna have to fix that.

Now for the negative side of my commentary. Jake, get some new pants!

 

[KPM]

Ok. So what exactly is "DTE"?

 

[Danny T]

Ok. So what exactly is "DTE"?

DTE - Fighting Arts (Direct Torres Eskrima) - History

 

[geezer]

DTE - Fighting Arts (Direct Torres Eskrima) - History

I know that article sounds a lot like so many guys pushing their stuff. Take away the promotion and the short version is that Martin is just a guy that has been around and has been exposed to a lot of stuff. What's different is that he really gets the concept behind all the frills. More importantly he can look at what a person does, regardless of "style", and help them be more effective.

30 some years ago he learned WT and Latosa Escrima alongside me from guys Like Leung Ting, Rene Latosa, Brady Brazil..... Now (when I can) I go to him to figure out how to make my stuff more functional. He's really a top notch coach.

 

[SaulGoodman]

For those who don't know about him ...Martin isn't really a Wing Chun guy. His outlook is much broader than WC, but WC concepts definitely figure into the picture. Some of us see DTE as "What JKD should be!"

or ... I think of Martin as our answer to Alan Orr, except that Martin doesn't care if you see the WC in his stuff or not. The point is that is works! I'm just sorry that I live on the wrong side of the valley and don't get to train with you guys anymore. Gonna have to fix that.

Now for the negative side of my commentary. Jake, get some new pants!

I have a sneaky suspicion that Alan doesn't care if people think his stuff looks like wing Chun or not...

 

[Danny T]

I know that article sounds a lot like so many guys pushing their stuff. Take away the promotion and the short version is that Martin is just a guy that has been around and has been exposed to a lot of stuff. What's different is that he really gets the concept behind all the frills. More importantly he can look at what a person does, regardless of "style", and help them be more effective.

30 some years ago he learned WT and Latosa Escrima alongside me from guys Like Leung Ting, Rene Latosa, Brady Brazil..... Now (when I can) I go to him to figure out how to make my stuff more functional. He's really a top notch coach.

Have met him twice. Very good experiences.

 

[Danny T]

I have a sneaky suspicion that Alan doesn't care if people think his stuff looks like wing Chun or not...

My Sifu often states; "Form - Drills - Application. Application may not look anything like the form or the drill."

 

[SaulGoodman]

Wish more people shared this view Danny, really tired of hearing people say " but it doesn't look like wing Chun"

 

[Danny T]

Wish more people shared this view Danny, really tired of hearing people say " but it doesn't look like wing Chun"

Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.

Man you are a kindred spirit, that's EXACTLY the way I've grown to see the art...

 

[Phobius]

Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.

You can never be the system anyway as a system can never be used to fight. What we can do with a system is obtain a style that works for us and this style is what we will use while fighting. The more we train WC the more this style may adhere to the concepts. That moment we need to think in terms of rules as to what we should do next during a fight is the moment we already got beaten up.

 

[Danny T]

You can never be the system anyway as a system can never be used to fight. What we can do with a system is obtain a style that works for us and this style is what we will use while fighting. The more we train WC the more this style may adhere to the concepts. That moment we need to think in terms of rules as to what we should do next during a fight is the moment we already got beaten up.

Sure. However many enslave themselves to the systems method of training and never transition from drills to application. They adhere to drill/s as application rather than understanding and using the attribute/s the drill/s develop. How you apply may well be different to how I apply.

 

[Jake104]

Im glad people are enjoying the video. My reason for posting it is to pay homage to him..He's a great martial artist and teacher and deserves some recognition!

I'll chime in later when I got time.. geezer your one to talk about shorts..

 

[SaulGoodman]

Sure. However many enslave themselves to the systems method of training and never transition from drills to application. They adhere to drill/s as application rather than understanding and using the attribute/s the drill/s develop. How you apply may well be different to how I apply.

Agree, I take the side effects/attributes obtained from forms/drills/sparring into battle not the drills themselves. This is why so many expect applied wing Chun to look like drills eg pak da/lap da combinations etc. I have had several people recently come and watch my class as prospective students and because my expression of wing Chun doesn't look like Donnie Yen in Ip man 3 they were somewhat confused...

 

[SaulGoodman]

Im glad people are enjoying the video. My reason for posting it is to pay homage to him..He's a great teacher and deserves some recognition!

I'll chime in later when I got time.. geezer your one talk about shorts..

Jake, any more clips?

 

[KPM]

Many people become slaves to the system rather than using the system as a method of training and then just doing whatever one must do to win a fight.

I agree to an extent. But then, if when fighting if someone isn't doing anything they've been training all those years, then maybe then should be training something else! ;-) If people resort to kickboxing in a hard spar or real fight, then why not just train kickboxing? Wouldn't that be more efficient?

After all, boxers look like boxers when they fight AND when they train. Kickboxers look like kickboxers when they fight AND when they train. BJJ guys look like BJJ guys when they fight AND when they train. Why should Wing Chun be any different?

Now, I'm not saying that when a Wing Chun guy fights he should look just like his forms and drills! But if you put a Wing Chun guy in the ring with a kickboxer and a neutral observer can't tell which fighter is which....there is a problem there!

 

[SaulGoodman]

I agree to an extent. But then, if when fighting if someone isn't doing anything they've been training all those years, then maybe then should be training something else! ;-) If people resort to kickboxing in a hard spar or real fight, then why not just train kickboxing? Wouldn't that be more efficient?

After all, boxers look like boxers when they fight AND when they train. Kickboxers look like kickboxers when they fight AND when they train. BJJ guys look like BJJ guys when they fight AND when they train. Why should Wing Chun be any different?

Now, I'm not saying that when a Wing Chun guy fights he should look just like his forms and drills! But if you put a Wing Chun guy in the ring with a kickboxer and a neutral observer can't tell which fighter is which....there is a problem there!

I thought you'd got past all this "if it doesn't look like wing Chun then it isn't " argument? I seem to recall on the other forum you argued with people including Alan Orr about this subject exhaustively. This is all down to perception and belief systems. Why does Wing Chun tend to look like kickboxing when used in the ring/cage?

Well for one thing the art contains all the component parts (and more) that kickboxing DOES contain. Long bridge, short bridge kicks,punches,knees, clinch fighting elbows etc etc. These are the high percentage techniques that work in many stand up systems.

When you get 2 guys from traditional systems, if they do a "showcase bout" where it's all about showing things that make their art "unique" then typically when they get into their respective fighting "stances" and feel each other out, you will see the difference between the Silat fighter and the wing Chun guy but once they clash and "mean it" postures and fancy stances go out of the window, the hands get higher to ensure the head is protected and the trench fighting begins.
Look up the MUSU fights on YouTube where there are dozens of full contact fights between Bagua, Hsing I, wing Chun,Jkd etc.You will see guys who sometimes start by demonstrating beautiful executions of traditional forms before getting in the ring and duking it out. As soon as the pressure is on the "kickboxing" almost invariably kicks in. When I see Alan's guys fight their stand up phases always contain (to me) good wing Chun principles. Anyways, what's so bad about kickboxing anyway?

 

[Jake104]

I thought you'd got past all this "if it doesn't look like wing Chun then it isn't " argument? I seem to recall on the other forum you argued with people including Alan Orr about this subject exhaustively. This is all down to perception and belief systems. Why does Wing Chun tend to look like kickboxing when used in the ring/cage?

Well for one thing the art contains all the component parts (and more) that kickboxing DOES contain. Long bridge, short bridge kicks,punches,knees, clinch fighting elbows etc etc. These are the high percentage techniques that work in many stand up systems.

When you get 2 guys from traditional systems, if they do a "showcase bout" where it's all about showing things that make their art "unique" then typically when they get into their respective fighting "stances" and feel each other out, you will see the difference between the Silat fighter and the wing Chun guy but once they clash and "mean it" postures and fancy stances go out of the window, the hands get higher to ensure the head is protected and the trench fighting begins.
Look up the MUSU fights on YouTube where there are dozens of full contact fights between Bagua, Hsing I, wing Chun,Jkd etc.You will see guys who sometimes start by demonstrating beautiful executions of traditional forms before getting in the ring and duking it out. As soon as the pressure is on the "kickboxing" almost invariably kicks in. When I see Alan's guys fight their stand up phases always contain (to me) good wing Chun principles. Anyways, what's so bad about kickboxing anyway?

Nice post!

Fighting isn't always pretty or have to have a distinctive look to be effective.. Take a look at the Diaz brothers. Nick used to throw a jab/straight punch that was very effective.. But it looked ugly as hell, you couldn't tell if it was boxing Wing Chun TDK JKD..? Whatever it was it worked great for him..My teacher has a saying " it's all the same crap". He means exactly what you said. The high percentage techniques that work are going to look similar in all arts.. Plus the tighter and more direct you can make that movement, the harder it will be to distinguish between this art or that art.. IMO It's the principles like you said. It's too hard to determine an art by watching a video or fight. Fighting is fighting!

If my teacher didn't show the drill or he left out the explanation and people only went off the visual part . I bet most would think he was teaching a grappling art like wrestling.. Really in the video he's using WC concept and principles to achieve the same thing a wrestler might do? He knows there will always be people that just can't or won't except that.. But just like Alan has said in his videos "as long as WE know it's WC and it works". "That's all that matters"?

Another one of Coach Martin's sayings is "we are not eating sandwiches in DTE". Meaning, we don't train were we throw a punch and leave an arm out there so the other guy can do ten techniques. We always train with intent. So if for example someone throws a punch and I decide to tan da or do a traditional lap sao or whatever...The guy throwing that punch isn't going to stop and not throw the cross or back hand.. That punch is coming and coming faster then you think. There is no time for those extra moves when someone has intent. Instead we engage and make the move as direct as possible.. The way he teaches is once you engage that's your move, now it's his.. I'll feel his move at contact by then it's over. So we try to make every movement count..

We train from behind the count. Which IMO is genius, because most people train from in front of the count. By training behind the count it forces us to make our movements sharp and direct so we can get ahead of the count quickly.. We don't rely on speed though..

Another one of Instructor Martin's saying is. "We come to him so he can sharpen are blade". In order to sharpen a blade you take material off, you don't ad material "?... Again making things sharper and more direct. This is why the principles are so important. Otherwise you can get lost in techniques.

Hopefully there will be more video's.. As long as he gives me permission I'll post them.