Does this actaully work for Self Defense

[MJS]

I don't take anything you said as a slam, and I'm not trying to slam them either. I think my instructor is good, and the school is good too. I just want to be sure I get the most I can from what I'm learning. My goal is to really learn the material in a way I can actually use it, not just memorize it to the point I can display it, if you take my meaning.

I still get frustrated at times, when running through material with my instructor. Just when I think I'm doing something right, he'll point out the smallest detail that I wasn't thinking about. This is a good thing of course!

I think that SKK has some great techs. and I've found myself still doing some in a tech. line. Take one of the more advanced people at your school aside, and run through some of the material with them. Really break down each tech. and really work the fine points of it. It'll never hurt to get some feedback from some of the Brown Belts you were talking about.

Mike

 

[bill007]

My goal is to really learn the material in a way I can actually use it, not just memorize it to the point I can display it, if you take my meaning.

Most of the Kempo punch techniques will work well in street s-d I think, they are quick hand techiques not too beautiful but effective, for the combination this is another story... if you ever do the no. 4 in real life I will be very surprise the guy wait for your axe kick in his jewel with legs wide open, I'm arguing with my teacher for so many years about this one lol... I think it's more about to learn the principle than to execute all the tech, in fact who cares if you do it this way or that way in self-defense situation if you save your butt.

 

[DavidCC]

As I say in my other post, the timing and distance elements both wind up being too short. I have also experienced this during testing when I paired against brown belts. They work at close range and offer basically no time to respond to an attack. I felt that was a VERY realistinc situation, but it left me wondering if I don't have the time or distance to make the technique work, then what good is it.

Try attacking the exact same way agaisnt one of these browns and see how they deal with it. And also, ask them about it. You've GOt to control the depth of the encounter!

 

[IWishToLearn]

Train...train...train...and once again...TRAIN!! Key concept is positioning yourself - in kenpo what we call moving Up the Circle - we expose vulnerable points during our freestyle or technique applications while maintaining our own coverage - then exploit it to our benefit.

 

[marlon]

Hello,
i want to state for the record the sytem works and is extremely effective. How you are taught and how you train will impact your ability in a real confrontation big time. I do not say that the techniques train motion but the do train muscle memory and flow. Every time i find a combo / technique i do not like or think cannot work this is a flag for me to work it hard alone and with a non cooperative partner. Like the forms many things are to be learned and what you get into it is what you get out of it. Let your instructor know that you want to be able to defend yourself with skk and perhaps he will show you some different ways of applying the knowledge. I love it when the students ask these type of question and i generally believe that even if one is asking the question is in many minds. If you have specific questions about a technique ask either to your instructor or here. Also, remeber there are concepts being taught by the forms and the techniques as well, but they should work (read Danjo's signature) and again you are still fairly new to the art...after 16 years of train i still feel new to the art. Work and practice with your goals in mind and you will get what you are looking for, it is all there in shaolin kempo. Lastly, kempo has been described as telephone booth boxing...it is mainly an inclose sytem...so try your techniques up close and personal and also see how thety are structured to get you there.

Respectfully,
marlon

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

 

[Doc]

I have been studing SKK for several years now in a local Villari School and I am currently a Blue Belt. I have to ask, Does this actually work for self defense? Some of the techniques I know can be effective, but a great deal of what I have seen, seems unpractical. In addition to my class training and seminars I have attended, I have the Villari DVD set White to Black Belt, and I must say it is not that impressive. It is all too choreographed. Many of the moves seem much too long and compilcated to be efective in a real fight. Since Villaris stresses that this is supposed to be self defense, I keep trying to evaluate what I'm being taught with a critical eye toward practical application, and many times it comes up short. I'd like to get some feedback from other people. Has anyone here ever actaully used any of this to defend themselves, and if so how well did it work?

You're doing what you're supposed to do when it comes to your own butt. If a teacher has not demonstrated how YOU can make whatever functional for YOU, bail like your butts on fire. Don't believe the hocus pocus. If you have no faith and are not comfortable with something, you won't use it when threatened and stressed. I don't care who the teacher is.

 

[Shotochem]

You're doing what you're supposed to do when it comes to your own butt. If a teacher has not demonstrated how YOU can make whatever functional for YOU, bail like your butts on fire. Don't believe the hocus pocus. If you have no faith and are not comfortable with something, you won't use it when threatened and stressed. I don't care who the teacher is.

Excellent point.

Also, every technique is different for each individual. I'm a little lacking in the height dept and I know there are many techniques that are difficult for me to use effectively. It is not just Kempo or Shotokan which I also trained in. You have to use what works for you.

There are many factors involved in every situation.

1) can you actually do the technique effectively ? Alot of us older guys can't do stuff the same as a young flexible person.

2) What size is the attacker in relation to you. If the attacker is too large or much stronger than you it may not work. Use something different.

3) Look at your surroundings. If the ground is slippery or you are in close quarters, you are limited in what you may be able to do.

With time and the proper training we all get better in knowing and understanding our strong and weak points. This is when we really make our MA our own.
-Marc-

 

[Josh Oakley]

I have to differ with you here. When I was taking TKD there were some defenses against punches shown that involved knocking a punch out of the air with a crescent...

Strike 1 - No one throws a punch from that far away.

Strike 2 - Their fist is closer to your face than your foot is to their fist

Strike 3 - The arm moves way faster than the leg

and after three strikes you're out or should I say KTFO

There are some "self defense" techniques that are just downright flawed on multiple counts. For the above example the physics of distance time and speed are against the first movement in everyway.

I have to differ based on my experience as well. I've been sparring (sans gear) with a group of friends from various disciplines for about five years now. One of these guys can indeed block almost any punch thrown at him; it's a key part of his defense. And none of us are slow punchers. In fact, one of us is Asa Rainey's kid, and grew up doing EPAK, and even he can only get in a punch on rare occasion.

I would say it depends on the situation, timing, body style, and how well you have trained your kicks, as well as the target of the kick.

And as far as no one throwing a punch from far away... on the street, you're often dealing with rank ameteurs, not highly trained kempokas. People do throw punches from far away. It's happened to me. It's happened to others. People do throw punches from that far away. Stupid people. But stupid people can still be dangerous.

 

[Ray]

... on the street, you're often dealing with rank ameteurs, not highly trained kempokas.

Man, I hope so.

However, we should still expect plenty of people on the street who can fight well and are extremely well practiced. After all, all of us who think we're something special use the same streets as amateur and professional boxers do. Not to mention people who have trained in other ways. Every champion fighter was once a rank ameteur.

Last but not least, I recall an incident where a guy busted an old woman over the back of the head with a brick so he could steal her purse. If "thrust into darkness" is to work, you've got to know that the guy is coming.

 

[Danjo]

While there are few techniques that will work perfectly on the street as is, IMO SKK combinations are unrealistic because they are all done off of Japanese Forward, Step-through punches. I have never seen someone in the street punch this way. When you try to adjust the techniques for a regular boxer's reverse punch/right cross etc., they don't retain their dojo effectiveness.

Bits and pieces can help you develop certain skills, but then one would probably do better to simply train those skills than learn the entire combination.

In terms of the basics, SKK is about as good as any Karate style if it's trained properly. That doesn't make SKK a bad martial art per se, but rather more like other traditional MAs like Shotokan etc. in terms of realistic application.

 

[marlon]

., they don't retain their dojo effectiveness.

i definitely think this depends on how you train the techniques...no techiques look clean and smooth in reality. skk techniques work at least as well as other systems.

Bits and pieces can help you develop certain skills, but then one would probably do better to simply train those skills than learn the entire combination.

teaching methodology...plus the combos trainined properly work effectively.

In terms of the basics, SK
K is about as good as any Karate style if it's trained properly. That doesn't make SKK a bad martial art per se, but rather more like other traditional MAs like Shotokan etc. in terms of realistic application.[/quote]

i have a few ex shotokan students and ex kyokushin students and we all can agree that skk is very different from these.


Respectfully,
marlon

 

[Danjo]

., they don't retain their dojo effectiveness.

i definitely think this depends on how you train the techniques...no techiques look clean and smooth in reality. skk techniques work at least as well as other systems.

Bits and pieces can help you develop certain skills, but then one would probably do better to simply train those skills than learn the entire combination.

teaching methodology...plus the combos trainined properly work effectively.

In terms of the basics, SK
K is about as good as any Karate style if it's trained properly. That doesn't make SKK a bad martial art per se, but rather more like other traditional MAs like Shotokan etc. in terms of realistic application.

i have a few ex shotokan students and ex kyokushin students and we all can agree that skk is very different from these.


Respectfully,
marlon

What do you mean by "Properly"? Do you not train off a forward step-through punch with your combinations?

 

[marlon]

initially the movements are learned off of a forward step through punch then after the movements are know they are to be executed agaist a 1- 2 punch then hook punches against as grab and a punch against being pull/ whipped around into a punch against kicks...and without knowing what is going to be thrown at you. Of course some will work better against certain attacks than others...It is like learning a form in the air, good methodology but incomplete until you can use it against a resisting attacker with a mind of thier own. A combination is a mini form. A form can be empty or full or overflowing and so can a combination or technique

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Danjo]

initially the movements are learned off of a forward step through punch then after the movements are know they are to be executed agaist a 1- 2 punch then hook punches against as grab and a punch against being pull/ whipped around into a punch against kicks...and without knowing what is going to be thrown at you. Of course some will work better against certain attacks than others...It is like learning a form in the air, good methodology but incomplete until you can use it against a resisting attacker with a mind of thier own. A combination is a mini form. A form can be empty or full or overflowing and so can a combination or technique

Respectfully,
Marlon

Well, it sounds like you guys are training pretty well then. Quite a bit different than how it was where I was at.

 

[Josh Oakley]

What do you mean by "Properly"? Do you not train off a forward step-through punch with your combinations?

From the way I understand it in both Shaolin Kempo and Kung Fu San Soo, the step-through punch is more for the safety of the uke than anything else.I was shown slow motion a couple of the combos from Sansoo against someone punching with an alternate step, and they seemed like they'd be even more effective against someone alternately punching and stepping. Granted, I'vd never collapsed someone's knee while at the same time breaking his arm, then brought him into me and broke his neck in REAL life, but you can only get a certain amount of realism until you start losing training partners (and gaining time in jail).

 

[Josh Oakley]

Man, I hope so.

However, we should still expect plenty of people on the street who can fight well and are extremely well practiced. After all, all of us who think we're something special use the same streets as amateur and professional boxers do. Not to mention people who have trained in other ways. Every champion fighter was once a rank ameteur.

Last but not least, I recall an incident where a guy busted an old woman over the back of the head with a brick so he could steal her purse. If "thrust into darkness" is to work, you've got to know that the guy is coming.

I can't really think of ANY technique that works after you've been busted over the head with a brick.Hopefully I get at least some instant to know what's going on. If not... oh well. Martial artists aren't super-human.

But generally, martial artists I know from multiple walks of life are trying to avoid fights, rather than start them. And I do the same. You're right, though. It is important not to think little of any adversary, because you just never know.

 

[Carol]

How an art looks isn't a measure of it's effectiveness. Pencak Silat has some of the oddest looking moves I've seen so far in MA. It looks a bit goofy, until you are taken down by it.

 

[Danjo]

From the way I understand it in both Shaolin Kempo and Kung Fu San Soo, the step-through punch is more for the safety of the uke than anything else.I was shown slow motion a couple of the combos from Sansoo against someone punching with an alternate step, and they seemed like they'd be even more effective against someone alternately punching and stepping. Granted, I'vd never collapsed someone's knee while at the same time breaking his arm, then brought him into me and broke his neck in REAL life, but you can only get a certain amount of realism until you start losing training partners (and gaining time in jail).

Well, try doing combination #3 off of a boxer's reverse right cross and see where you end up, i.e., in a perfect position to get kneed in the face. It works because it assumes a karate forward punch. There are others, but I get your larger meaning.

 

[marlon]

Well, try doing combination #3 off of a boxer's reverse right cross and see where you end up, i.e., in a perfect position to get kneed in the face. It works because it assumes a karate forward punch. There are others, but I get your larger meaning.

actually Danjo, i woldlike you to try #3 off of a boxer's right cross. forget the block use that arm position as a guard (like boxer's do) drop and strike the groin (don't stay there) pop up and strike the head. Itr can work well if you practice the distance and timing. You can right hook punch into that guard if you like to give your uke something to think about then drop for the body shot then right hammer to strike or check the arm / mid body cancelling out certain weapons if your distance and body alignment are correct left strike at the head while slipping in close enough to control the spine with the sholulders and the neck...or you can do the whole technique with a fluid go-with-the-uke's-energy feel to it like aikido. yes if you drop and strike low and stay there you can get hit with a knee but generally when anyone extends to strike another they are opening thier defense that is where timimng body alignment positioning and broken rhythm and misaligning uke ...etc comes into play. A snapshot of any 'move' can be picked apart it is not the snapshot that makes it work it is the whole technique / bodty mechanics/ timing/ accuracy/ oppotunit /and training. I would ask you again to take #3 and train/ work it for 2 weeks against that attack you mentioned and differing attacks and see what you find.

Respectfully,
Marlon
p.s. i am always looking for what is wrong with sk in order to improve my sk so these kind of discussions help me tremendously. thank you and please keep bring things up

 

[Danjo]

actually Danjo, i woldlike you to try #3 off of a boxer's right cross. forget the block use that arm position as a guard (like boxer's do) drop and strike the groin (don't stay there) pop up and strike the head. Itr can work well if you practice the distance and timing. You can right hook punch into that guard if you like to give your uke something to think about then drop for the body shot then right hammer to strike or check the arm / mid body cancelling out certain weapons if your distance and body alignment are correct left strike at the head while slipping in close enough to control the spine with the sholulders and the neck...or you can do the whole technique with a fluid go-with-the-uke's-energy feel to it like aikido. yes if you drop and strike low and stay there you can get hit with a knee but generally when anyone extends to strike another they are opening thier defense that is where timimng body alignment positioning and broken rhythm and misaligning uke ...etc comes into play. A snapshot of any 'move' can be picked apart it is not the snapshot that makes it work it is the whole technique / bodty mechanics/ timing/ accuracy/ oppotunit /and training. I would ask you again to take #3 and train/ work it for 2 weeks against that attack you mentioned and differing attacks and see what you find.

Respectfully,
Marlon
p.s. i am always looking for what is wrong with sk in order to improve my sk so these kind of discussions help me tremendously. thank you and please keep bring things up

Well, you can probably make something work if you tried hard enough. But, my point is why not train from a more realistic attack scenario to begin with? How many people are going to attack you in the street with a karate forward punch attack? Much more common to be hit with a right cross, so why not train that way?

I can understand the Okinawan and Japanese systems not training that way in order to maintain their traditional art intact, but why would an American martial art that is supposed to focus on street fighting not adjust itself accordingly? For that matter, why, if as some people claim, SKK is a distant relation to Kajukenbo, would they have dropped the defenses against a right cross etc. and opted to go back to a less realistic Karate type of attack in the first place?