Does Pure Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Exist Anymore?

Marnetmar

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Messages
674
Reaction score
163
It is known Chan Yiu Min changed tons of moves and principles, and added forms and techniques from other styles.

Does Chan Wah Shun WC exist today in an undiluted form? It is known that the Yiu Choi branch has ties to Chan's disciple Ng Chun So, but it is also largely influenced by Yuen Chai Wan's Wing Chun.
 

Eric_H

Black Belt
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
558
Reaction score
104
Location
San Francisco

^ Not sure who this gent is through. Sorry for the sergio link, don't know an other reference to the guy.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
990
^^^ He is from Chan Yiu Min lineage....Chan Wah Shun's son who changed things so much.
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,809
Reaction score
2,810
Location
Phoenix, AZ
^^^^ That's the problem Keith. Ip Man WC is equally of the Chan Wah Shun lineage. He made changes too. Different ones, and IMO, some good ones.

What's "pure" Chan Wah Shun WC supposed to mean? I guess the OP is asking what branch is the least changed since the beginning of the 20th Century. Hard to say since lineages change and evolve with each generation and yet most traditional lineages deny changing, it is really hard to know the truth ("true believers" will never budge on this topic).

From my perspective the whole topic is moot. Older is not necessarily better. Neither is having greater complexity, more forms and techniques. Authenticity does matter ...some. But only to the extent that what I'm learning isn't just made up garbage.
 
OP
M

Marnetmar

Black Belt
Joined
Oct 9, 2013
Messages
674
Reaction score
163
^I completely agree with you Geezer, older isn't necessarily better. Neither is more authentic.

I'm just asking the question out of sheer curiosity -- what did the stuff that Yip Man learned look like? We may never know and there isn't much of a point in trying to find out, but it's fun to ponder.

Maybe this is a sign I just need to shut up and train :p
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
990
We can know in general terms what Ip Man's Wing Chun was like originally.

The history the gentlemen gives in that video above is bogus. He says Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same thing and both come from Chi Sim. We know they are NOT the same thing. He says that what he does today is what Chan Wah Shun taught and that everyone else missed out on things because Chan didn't it teach it to them. He implies that what Chan Wah Shun taught is what Leung Jan taught. But Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun curriculum is not that different than Ip Man's, and he learned from Fok Bo Cheun. What Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo after he retired is not that different than Ip Man's Wing Chun in that it doesn't have all the "elaboration" that Chan Yiu Min's Wing Chun has either.

So you can be pretty confident that what Ip Man originally learned looked very much like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun or Yiu Kay's Wing Chun.....SLT, CK, BG, dummy, pole, knives. No broadswords, spears, SLT with lots of movement and stepping, etc. What Ip Man's early students in Foshan do has been fairly well shown. That should be a pretty good indicator.

I don't think anyone believes that "original" Wing Chun had all the things that is now being taught in the Chan Yiu Min lineage.....except the Chan Yiu Min sifu above! ;)
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
We can know in general terms what Ip Man's Wing Chun was like originally.

The history the gentlemen gives in that video above is bogus. He says Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same thing and both come from Chi Sim. We know they are NOT the same thing. He says that what he does today is what Chan Wah Shun taught and that everyone else missed out on things because Chan didn't it teach it to them. He implies that what Chan Wah Shun taught is what Leung Jan taught. But Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun curriculum is not that different than Ip Man's, and he learned from Fok Bo Cheun. What Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo after he retired is not that different than Ip Man's Wing Chun in that it doesn't have all the "elaboration" that Chan Yiu Min's Wing Chun has either.

So you can be pretty confident that what Ip Man originally learned looked very much like Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun or Yiu Kay's Wing Chun.....SLT, CK, BG, dummy, pole, knives. No broadswords, spears, SLT with lots of movement and stepping, etc. What Ip Man's early students in Foshan do has been fairly well shown. That should be a pretty good indicator.

I don't think anyone believes that "original" Wing Chun had all the things that is now being taught in the Chan Yiu Min lineage.....except the Chan Yiu Min sifu above! ;)
------------------------------------------------------------------
Watching videos don't make for history IMO
 

Nobody Important

2nd Black Belt
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
885
Reaction score
462
Personally, I don't think of Wing & Weng to be separately created arts. I think they were of the same root and evolved differently. Weng was simply mixed with Hung Gar. No doubts that Chan Yiu Min and his wife padded the syllabus with Hung Gar modifying it from what Chan Wah Shun originally taught. Ng Chung So is the only other known student (aside from Yip Man & Chan Yiu Min) of Chan Wah Shun to actually pass anything on. The fact that what he taught to Yiu Choi differed very little from Yuen Chai Wan in appearance says alot about the look of what Chan Wah Shun taught.
 

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
990
Personally, I don't think of Wing & Weng to be separately created arts. I think they were of the same root and evolved differently. Weng was simply mixed with Hung Gar. No doubts that Chan Yiu Min and his wife padded the syllabus with Hung Gar modifying it from what Chan Wah Shun originally taught. Ng Chung So is the only other known student (aside from Yip Man & Chan Yiu Min) of Chan Wah Shun to actually pass anything on. The fact that what he taught to Yiu Choi differed very little from Yuen Chai Wan in appearance says alot about the look of what Chan Wah Shun taught.

I agree with all of the above! Wing Chun & Weng Chun definitely the same root, but also definitely not the same arts for the last 3 generations or more due to divergent evolution and development. Wing Chun likely was influenced by a "snake art" very early on while Weng Chun was not. Weng Chun wasn't mixed with Hung Ga until recent generations....mostly by Chu Chong Man in the 40's or 50's. Ng Mui is a myth. Chi Sim is a myth. But the basic premise behind the Chi Sim myth seems probable to me......someone that was an accomplished martial artist was hiding out from the imperial authorities in various locations (the stories say the Red Boats, Dongquan, and Fei Lo temple) and teaching a seed of the art that became both Wing Chun and Weng Chun.

But that "seed art" most definitely was not as "elaborate" as Chan Yiu Min's Wing Chun, or Andreas Hoffman's Weng Chun! ;)
 
Top