Is the wing chun punch real?

[kehcorpz]

I watched different videos where they showed how it's done and they all said stuff like
this punch feels way different than a normal punch and that it goes through your body
and it resonates in your body and so on.
It sounded a bit esoteric. Is this stuff really real? i am really curious about it. i wish i could
just go to a wing chun guy and have him punch me (not with full force of course) so that i can
feel if it really feels different. if it felt different then i'd know that this stuff is real.

I ask myself if this kind of punch is so much worse for an attacker than an ordinary punch
why don't professional boxers punch this way? Why haven't they picked up on this if this is so much better?

They also said that with the wing chun punch you can punch harder compared to if you punch ordinarily and
use your muscles. is there any way to test this and see if there really is more power? since i'm rather skinny
i don't think that i have a lot of punching power which is actually scary.
i have actually had nightmares about this! i was being attacked and i punched and nothing happened! the punch
had no effect at all.

if there was a punch to develop a deadly punch without relying on muscles it would be really cool but i'm sceptical
somehow. i mean how are you supposed to punch hard without depending on the strength of your muscles? then
this would basically mean that a 12 year old girl could punch just as hard as a grown man if she uses the wing chun
punch.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No. It's not real. You're hallucinating all of it.
Better turn off your computer before you get a virus.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The following 3 CMA styles are famous in "power generation". May be someone can put up a WC "power generation" clip so we can compare.

If you notice, all these 3 clips that the power generation require at least 1 second. If you try to throw 6 punches in 1 second (someone claimed he could punch that fast), there is no way that you can generate power as shown in those clips.

IMO, slow "power generation" and fast "chain punch" don't go together. The machine gun is different from the grenade. Both are needed in battle field.

Baji:

Chen Taiji:

XingYi Liu He:

 

[Juany118]

Okay. Let me give you the layman's definition of the WC punch, as I have been taught.

First you have to actually think of your stance/structure. Whether you are in MA (WCs version of a horse stance), left or right side neutral or front stance, your pelvis is slightly tilted forward to align your spine with the ground/your feet.

Second, your punch launches from your center, elbow down, ideally as you step into your target, as you should always be moving into your target, even if it is using your footwork to get to a flank/blind side.

Third the focal point (mentally) of your punch is not your shoulder. Of course the shoulder rotates BUT you are focusing on the elbows path through space.

Finally as soon as you strike, you must relax. I mean the instant you hit. This is the thing that imo takes the most practice. If you keep following through, like a "normal" punch, Newton's laws of Physics kick in. Energy rebounds through your arm disturbing your structure, plus it slows you down.

In essence WC punches work overtly on a principle of physics, that is why some people call it "the Science of Wing Chun." Force = mass * velocity. Via the centerline theory maximum mass is placed behind the punch. Via the idea of relaxation/suppleness in the execution of the punch you maximize repetitive speed. If you throw multiple punches they are thrown over each other (for lack of a better term), so each punch "starts from the heart". That way without a lot of "body English" or waist twisting, you have your punch start with the maximum amount of body mass behind it so even a small/skinny person can throw a heck of a punch as long as they commit and can get the speed/velocity.

 

[Juany118]

The following 3 CMA styles are famous in "power generation". May be someone can put up a WC "power generation" clip so we can compare.

Baji:

Chen Taiji:

XingYi Liu He:

The problem is scientific principles. Some lunches generate great force from rotation at the waist/center and a lot of shoulder. That kind of punch clearly looks powerful.

The problem is a WC punch does not look powerful, as the thrust I did with a foil in High School and College fencing may not have looked powerful. The problem is Physics isn't about appearance. In terms of a punch it is about mass * velocity. And in an efficient, and less showy way, a WC punch does a damn good job of using that equation.

This isn't to say the punches you show don't generate power, they do indeed. The difference lies in how each art meets the requirements of the force equation.

 

[drop bear]

Have a look at a knock out compilation. And you will notice that bombs knock people out. And precise technical strikes knock people out.

And the force equation is basically bubcus.

 

[Juany118]

Have a look at a knock out compilation. And you will notice that bombs knock people out. And precise technical strikes knock people out.

And the force equation is basically bubcus.

So the laws of physics don't exist in your world? Okay. Because that is what makes every punch work. Some use muscle rotation to bring the mass into play, all WC does is, instead of using as much muscle, they use principle of leverage/mechanical advantage instead to produce power.

Neither punch is inherently more powerful than the other, it's about the proper execution based on the underlying principles. Fighting technique is beyond ANY doubt, whether you acknowledge it or not, applied physics in the end. Punching, grappling, it doesn't matter it is all about the laws of physics being applied to biomechanics and this is actually the only thing that can be said to be an undisputed fact in terms of martial arts.

 

[kehcorpz]

thanks for the explanations!

since i have already watched a few videos about the wc punch i already "know" how it's supposed to be done, like how to stand and how to move the arm and so on. this stuff sounds really difficult. i mean even when i watch videos and they show it and comment on it
then it's still really hard to grasp-

but my question isn't about technique and also not about chain punching.
is a single wing chun punch still more powerful than an ordinary punch? does it really feel different
inside of the body?
the stuff which they said in the videos about how it resonates reminded me a bit of the 5 finger death punch where
you cause internal damage without external injury.
i think i also heard this somewhere else that there are certain punches where you can damage
internal organs cause the power of the punch goes through the body!
i thought that this only exists in movies. but if the wing chun punch really feels different then this
would mean that this stuff is real.

what happens for example if you wing chun punch somebody in the chest where the heart is?
could this damage the heart or stop it? that would be really scary. on the other hand it would also
be pretty helpful when somebody attacks you and you can just stop his heart with a single punch.

and does muscle mass play NO role at all in the wing chun punch according to wing chun theory?
does this mean mike tyson couldn't do a harder wing chun punch than a 12 year old girl?! i cant really
imagine that.

is the wing chun punch similar to the 1 inch punch?

 

[drop bear]

So the laws of physics don't exist in your world? Okay. Because that is what makes every punch work. Some use muscle rotation to bring the mass into play, all WC does is, instead of using as much muscle, they use principle of leverage/mechanical advantage instead to produce power.

Neither punch is inherently more powerful than the other, it's about the proper execution based on the underlying principles. Fighting technique is beyond ANY doubt, whether you acknowledge it or not, applied physics in the end. Punching, grappling, it doesn't matter it is all about the laws of physics being applied to biomechanics and this is actually the only thing that can be said to be an undisputed fact in terms of martial arts.

No the point is the laws of physics dont mesure a punch in terms of force.

So it is the wrong equation.

And a whole bunch of other issues that make that equation a tool used to fool idiots.

 

[Juany118]

thanks for the explanations!

since i have already watched a few videos about the wc punch i already know how it's supposed to be done, like how to stand and how to move the arm and so on.
this stuff sounds difficult.

but my question isn't about technique and also not about chain punching. is a single wing chun punch still more powerful than an ordinary punch? does it really feel different
inside of the body?
the stuff which they said in the videos about how it resonates reminded me a bit of the 5 finger punch where you cause internal damage without external injury.
i think i also heard this somewhere else that there are certain punches where you can damage internal organs cause the power of the punch goes through the body!
i thought that this only exists in movies. but if the wing chun punch really feels different then this would mean that this stuff is real.

what happens for example if you wing chun punch somebody in the chest where the heart is? could this damage the heart or stop it? what would be really scary.

The answer is... don't ask which punch is the best unless you want to start an internet crap storm. Explore martial arts. Find the one that feels right, not the one someone else tells you is the most powerful because the one that feels right is the one you will excel at and that is what is important.

 

[Juany118]

No the point is the laws of physics dont mesure a punch in terms of force.

So it is the wrong equation.

And a whole bunch of other issues that make that equation a tool used to fool idiots.

What ever you say man, if you want to say physics somehow doesn't apply to human movement okay, that's cool. Proven wrong by the entire history of science, and actual movement capture and data analysis of martial artists of all types, but clearly you believe this quite deeply, so there is no use debating with a cinder block.

 

[kehcorpz]

has this never been scientifically tested? i mean they have equipment to measure how much power a punch has.
has no wing chun guy ever tried measuring how hard his punch really is?! this would settle the debate once and for all.

if nobody ever dared to try this then this makes me suspicious.

 

[drop bear]

What ever you say man, if you want to say physics somehow doesn't apply to human movement okay, that's cool. Proven wrong by the entire history of science, and actual movement capture and data analysis of m.artial artists of all types, but clearly you believe this quite deeply, so there is no use debating with a cinder block.

Sorry going to have to go all credible Hulk on you here.

Ok. Here is the physics.
Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

It is. Far more complicated equation than F=m×a


This is force as far as physics determines it. Which is pretty much useless for knocking dudes out.
Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And my final issue is well so what? Knowing the equations have very little relevance to knocking dudes out. I am not a physicist and you did not even know your equation was wrong and it made zero practical difference.

And just to finish with a bit of fun

 

[Juany118]

@kehcorpz

More than a few times. Now most of these articles don't focus directly on WC but they focus on the physics of the punch in general confirming the principle

Improve Punching Power With Physics

The physics behind a Punch

(A Penn State U PDF)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EJcI4p5riNaYIND3Q&sig2=q1evZWwj4SkwXG2g7pYXVQ


Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

Just Google the physics of a punch. In the end they all talk about mass and velocity. WC just uses a different method. instead of driving forward from the ground via rotation al la boxing it achieves driving forward from the ground via what (for lack of a better term) amounts to a thrust al la fencing (without the sword of course lol).

Either way physics is achieved.

 

[Juany118]

Sorry going to have to go all credible Hulk on you here.

Ok. Here is the physics.
Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

It is. Far more complicated equation than F=m×a


This is force as far as physics determines it. Which is pretty much useless for knocking dudes out.
Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And my final issue is well so what? Knowing the equations have very little relevance to knocking dudes out. I am not a physicist and you did not even know your equation was wrong and it made zero practical difference.

And just to finish with a bit of fun

Saddly you post links without understanding the science. I posted one of the same links. You just are looking for something that supports a preconceived notion. However clearly you don't understand the science, you are simply looking for those things that, you think, support a preconceived notion.

Btw I am done with you at this point so feel free to blather. Thanks to the settings of this forum, I won't even see them.

 

[drop bear]

Ok body punches are the most interesting because you expect them to be bombs. The standard idea of throwing weight behind and all that. But quite often the technical punch will create that" goes through the body" feeling that is described.

And of course achieved with good punching technique.

 

[drop bear]

@kehcorpz

More than a few times. Now most of these articles don't focus directly on WC but they focus on the physics of the punch in general confirming the principle

Improve Punching Power With Physics

The physics behind a Punch

(A Penn State U PDF)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...EJcI4p5riNaYIND3Q&sig2=q1evZWwj4SkwXG2g7pYXVQ


Punch Force - The Science Behind The Punch

Just Google the physics of a punch. In the end they all talk about mass and velocity. WC just uses a different method. instead of driving forward from the ground via rotation al la boxing it achieves driving forward from the ground via what (for lack of a better term) amounts to a thrust al la fencing (without the sword of course lol).

Either way physics is achieved.

Might want to read your own links first.

As an example.

"The fist has its maximum velocity when it hits something. This collision causes the fist to slow down, and eventually when the fighter begins applying a force to retract his arm, the fist stops and returns to the fighter.
This speed is calculated using;
Velocity = Distance / Time
As you can see, there are two ways to make a fist go faster. By lengthening the distance or shortening the time. The distance can be lengthened to a maximum of the fighter’s arm length, but the time will depend on training, and the acceleration (a=v/t) of the arm.
But what is the advantage to a “faster” punch? We can investigate this by taking a look at the concepts of momentum and impulse. Momentum can be seen as an object’s tendency to resist change in acceleration and its formula is:

Momentum (P) = Mass * Velocity

An impulse is the change in momentum of a certain object, and uses the formula:
Impulse = Force * Time"

That was from your PDF. And it isn't really f=m×a is it.

 

[geezer]

I'm the first to admit that the physics stuff is way over my head.

Just today I picked my son up from the local community college where he is taking physics in summer school and he asked me about the physics of punching. I told him that I don't believe in any "woo-woo" version of ki or chi. To me, all that is just an old school way of visualizing and trying to explain what's happening in the MA. Useful perhaps, but I believe it can all be accounted for by the laws of physics.

Problem is, it ain't simple physics, as some people like to say. f=ma doesn't even come close. There are so many variables in the way punching power can be generated, delivered, and received. Check out those compilations that Drop Bear posted and think about how two fighters actually move in the ring! Can you imagine all the factors involved? Boggles the mind.

Ok now one the thing about WC punches is that they really work to develop short-power, and do a pretty good job. Bruce Lee's so-called one-inch punch was adapted from WC. And, somewhere on youtube is a video of a goofy, younger version of myself in a demo receiving safely "attenuated" inch punches from my old WT sifu. Depending on the way he released his force it could either knock you back hard or, worse by far, it would penetrate and go right through you. The later type didn't look like much but really hurt. Done full on, it could be dangerous.

Good boxers generate short-power differently. My original escrima instructor used similar technique (he was also a boxer) and had one of the scariest short punches I've ever seen. Truly dangerous.

 

[Juany118]

I'm the first to admit that the physics stuff is way over my head.

Just today I picked my son up from the local community college where he is taking physics in summer school and he asked me about the physics of punching. I told him that I don't believe in any "woo-woo" version of ki or chi. To me, all that is just an old school way of visualizing and trying to explain what's happening in the MA, but I believe it can all be accounted for by the laws of physics. Problem is, it ain't simple physics, as some people like to say. f=ma doesn't even come close. There are so many variables in the way punching power can be generated, delivered, and received. Check out those compilations that Drop Bear posted and think about how two fighters actually move in the ring! Can you imagine all the factors involved? Boggles the mind.

Ok now one the thing about WC punches is that they really work to develop short-power, and do a pretty good job. Bruce Lee's so-called one-inch punch was adapted from WC. And, somewhere on youtube is a video of a goofy, younger version of myself in a demo receiving safely "attenuated" inch punches from my old WT sifu. Depending on the way he released his force it could either knock you back hard or, worse by far, it would penetrate and go right through you. The later type didn't look like much but really hurt. Done full on, it could be dangerous.

Good boxers generate short-power differently. My original escrima instructor used similar technique (he was also a boxer) and had one of the scariest short punches I've ever seen. Truly dangerous.

And this is kinda goes where I was going. No art has THE punch. They all work well, else why would people have practiced the art for hundreds of not thousands of years? The point is the boxer, the WC dude, the FMA guy, they all learn how to punch in a way that their predecessors proved was effective and HURT, otherwise it would have died our as it was ineffective.

I think in our "more civilized" world people forget these arts started as ways to REALLY fight, even kill, in real life. If you are not studying a "traditional" fighting art (FMA, WC, etc.) you are studying their child. Either way, if taken to the ultimate conclusion you are studying not to beat an opponent but to eliminate a threat to your life. They have all lasted, thus they all work.

 

[Marnetmar]

OP, I think it's a bit patronizing and dubious to assume that we're all a bunch of cultists who believe in the practical viability of what is essentially a parlour trick and then ask why boxers don't punch that way, etc. as if you're trying to reason with a five year old who's dead-set on believing that Santa Claus is real.

Ultimately our end idea is to close the gap, smother, control and strike to soft spots and use elbows and knees (please don't equate this with "teh deadly" for God's sake), not to chainpunch somebody in the chest for five minutes or expect to use Bruce Lee's one-inch punch in the middle of a flurry.